Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

eureporter.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 273 posts

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#251

Post by logifail »

tpm wrote: post #243
logifail wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Q: Is France "safe" compared to the UK?

What does this have to do with anything? The reason people are trying to get to the UK from France (and other countries) is they are trying to apply for asylum in the UK. Not in France, in the UK. And the reason they have to do that in the UK is the fact the UK cancelled the possibility to apply for asylum at its embassies. So if you don't want people coming from France to ask for asylum, enable the option to apply a…

> The reason people are trying to get to the UK from France (and other countries) is they are trying to apply for asylum in the UK

Why is applying for asylum in the UK more appealing to them than applying for asylum in France?

> But all of this is to say it does not matter whether France is or is not a safe country

If we accept that France is a safe country then doesn't it follow that there is no need for anyone to cross the English channel in a small boat in order to claim asylum?

Unless of course you are someone who is being persecuted by the French and are therefore seeking safety with the English, but since it's been over 200 years since those two countries were at war with each other so that sounds somewhat unlikely.

Gerald Knaus[0] observed last year that although there is a right to asylum, there is no right to migration[1].

[0] https://www.esiweb.org/esi-staff/gerald-knaus [1] https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2023-11/asylpolitik-asyl...

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#252

Post by ImJamal »

ben_w wrote: post #245
ImJamal wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time the British had a civil war or invited in a new royal family? Having issues hundreds of years ago hardly seems worthy of denying the stability of a country. Many countries have come into existence and no longer exist in that same period of time.

> When was the last time the British had a civil war 1998: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles If that's sub-threshold for you, I'd also add the 1919 to 1921 Irish War of Independence as, likewise with the Troubles, it was part of the UK at the time. Personally, I would also argue that almost all of the independence movements in the former colonies count as examples of the governments of the UK being "not stab…

I don't really consider the Troubles to be a Civil War. Even Wikipedia is making a distinction and calling it an "irregular war" or "low-level war".

So the last time a civil war happened was 100 years ago. That seems decently stable. The war itself was quite minor as well. Wikipedia says 2300 people died with 900 of them being civilians. A two year war with less than 1,500 soldiers dying isn't exactly that unstable. It is more of a dust up (I understand it is causing all sorts of conflicts even to this day).

When it comes to Cyprus and the like I don't really call it unstable. Did Cyrpus leaving cause any issues to the UK? Would the average person have even known where Cyprus is located let alone what was happening? Calling it a civil conflict or whatever may be technically correct but feels different. English isn't even an official language of Cyprus (I assume it was back when the UK was in charge?). People in the UK probably didn't have family in Cyprus. People a thousand miles away leaving isn't that big of a deal.

As for the US Revolutionary War, there were 10s of thousands dead from the war. This was more than just a dust up. How is a few hundred years not a long history? I've seen some estimates that say the average existence of a country is 150 years.

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#253

Post by tpm »

logifail wrote: post #251
tpm wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with anything? The reason people are trying to get to the UK from France (and other countries) is they are trying to apply for asylum in the UK. Not in France, in the UK. And the reason they have to do that in the UK is the fact the UK cancelled the possibility to apply for asylum at its embassies. So if you don't want people coming from France to ask for asylum, enable the option to apply a…

> The reason people are trying to get to the UK from France (and other countries) is they are trying to apply for asylum in the UK Why is applying for asylum in the UK more appealing to them than applying for asylum in France? > But all of this is to say it does not matter whether France is or is not a safe country If we accept that France is a safe country then doesn't it follow that there is no need for anyone to c…

> Why is applying for asylum in the UK more appealing to them than applying for asylum in France?

I don't really care about that. There are plenty of people applying for asylum in many countries.

> If we accept that France is a safe country then doesn't it follow that there is no need for anyone to cross the English channel in a small boat in order to claim asylum?

No, this is not how this works. You can't force them to apply in France. They are people and they have their rights. And France is a sovereign country, you can't force them either. Maybe you could try to negotiate with France and the EU, like the EU negotiated a deal with Turkey, but I understand currently UK prefers to do questionable deals with Rwanda before engaging with EU members.

> there is no right to migration

Of course, that's not an open question.

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#254

Post by ben_w »

ImJamal wrote: post #252
ben_w wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When was the last time the British had a civil war 1998: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles If that's sub-threshold for you, I'd also add the 1919 to 1921 Irish War of Independence as, likewise with the Troubles, it was part of the UK at the time. Personally, I would also argue that almost all of the independence movements in the former colonies count as examples of the governments of the UK being "not stab…

I don't really consider the Troubles to be a Civil War. Even Wikipedia is making a distinction and calling it an "irregular war" or "low-level war". So the last time a civil war happened was 100 years ago. That seems decently stable. The war itself was quite minor as well. Wikipedia says 2300 people died with 900 of them being civilians. A two year war with less than 1,500 soldiers dying isn't exactly that unstable.…

> That seems decently stable

What I'm arguing against is the claim "the UK has an extremely long history of relative stability compared to basically anywhere else on the planet".

For that, "decently stable" isn't good enough, it has to be remarkable stability.

> Did Cyrpus leaving cause any issues to the UK?

Given this happened during the collapse of the British Empire, it's difficult to say exactly what fraction of the many issues facing the UK in that era were due to any specific one of the many things that changed in rapid succession. For example, the Cyrpus conflict began before the Suez Crisis, but continued for several years after.

However, the continued presence of the air bases suggests that it was considered important by the UK government.

> English isn't even an official language of Cyprus (I assume it was back when the UK was in charge?).

English was the sole official language during British colonial rule and the lingua franca until 1960, and continued to be used in courts until 1989, and in legislation until 1996.

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#255

Post by miohtama »

0dayz wrote: post #249
dmichulke wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the ECHR is not a EU institution, it's just European. The bad guys here are the commission and some EU member states.

Here's the actual position accord to the commission: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2023-00166...

As it is Ylva Johansson, the hater of freedom of speech and the champion of scanning software companies, speaking in this document, here is her background:

https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the...

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#256

Post by scotty79 »

berkes wrote: post #238
xvector wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU's entire modern tech industry does not even measure up to that of one US company. Dismissals of the EU's inability to compete in tech is why EU citizens have missed out on literally tens of trillions of dollars in economic growth post-2000s. The EU's lack of ability to innovate is becoming a serious problem for the progress of our species as a whole.

Yeah. Airbus has proven to be unable to compete and innovate itself into an established market. /S

What has Boeing proven then?

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#257

Post by xvector »

berkes wrote: post #240
pb7 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what happens when you're a wealthy country with a booming economy and flush with companies that serve the world.

No. That's what happens when there's no social system for pensions. In the US everyone and his dog has to "invest" in the stock market for their older days. In Europe this is happening more and more too, but there's also still a reasonable pension system in most countries that serves this purpose for individuals. There are simply far more investers putting money in already inflated assets in the US than in Europe. Ta…

You do realize that pensions invest in the market too? 401ks just give you more control over the investment.

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#258

Post by logifail »

tpm wrote: post #253
logifail wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason people are trying to get to the UK from France (and other countries) is they are trying to apply for asylum in the UK Why is applying for asylum in the UK more appealing to them than applying for asylum in France? > But all of this is to say it does not matter whether France is or is not a safe country If we accept that France is a safe country then doesn't it follow that there is no need for anyone to c…

> Why is applying for asylum in the UK more appealing to them than applying for asylum in France? I don't really care about that. There are plenty of people applying for asylum in many countries. > If we accept that France is a safe country then doesn't it follow that there is no need for anyone to cross the English channel in a small boat in order to claim asylum? No, this is not how this works. You can't force them…

> No, this is not how this works.

I fear this attitude is partially responsible for the fall in support for what I guess we can call "centrist" parties. The harder this issue is pushed, the more the radical parties win support.

> You can't force them to apply in France.

"The Dublin Convention covering the European Union stipulates that asylum seekers are returned to the country where their entry into the union was first recorded, and where they were first fingerprinted"[0]

Well, perhaps not UK -> France thanks to Brexit, but according to the Dublin convention you certainly can return them to the first safe EU country in which they were recorded.

See "Asylum Shopping"[0] - a term for the practice by some asylum seekers of applying for asylum in several states or seeking to apply in a particular state after traveling through other states.

"In Ireland, two-thirds of asylum seekers whose applications failed were found to be already known to the British border authorities, a third of the time under a different nationality, such as Tanzanians claiming to be fleeing persecution in Somalia"[1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_shopping [1] https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/two-thirds-of-failed-a...

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#259

Post by berkes »

xvector wrote: post #257
berkes wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That's what happens when there's no social system for pensions. In the US everyone and his dog has to "invest" in the stock market for their older days. In Europe this is happening more and more too, but there's also still a reasonable pension system in most countries that serves this purpose for individuals. There are simply far more investers putting money in already inflated assets in the US than in Europe. Ta…

You do realize that pensions invest in the market too? 401ks just give you more control over the investment.

Yes, I do.

But pension funds invest very different from Jane and Joe for their retirement.

To answer equally condescending: I presume you realize that?

Re: European Court of Human Rights bans weakening of secure end-to-end encryption

#260

Post by berkes »

scotty79 wrote: post #256
berkes wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Airbus has proven to be unable to compete and innovate itself into an established market. /S

What has Boeing proven then?

My point was that Airbus has proven to be able to break into an established, near monopolized market through innovation.
Post reply on HN