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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#251

Post by IshKebab »

happyopossum wrote: post #221
TillE wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notably, the DMA includes words like "fair" and "reasonable" for which there is no strict robot-like interpretation. Apple's plans will be evaluated as such by regulators, and there are several provisions which are just plainly anti-competitive, especially the 50 cent per user per year fee just to run an app store. It's really hard to see that holding up.

> 50 cent per user per year fee just to run an app store. It's really hard to see that holding up. Hard to see a set of circumstances where the regulators succeed in forcing a company to develop and maintain a complex set of APIs for free in perpetuity...

They won't do that though. Apple will be free to stop selling iPhones if it wants.

In any case iPhones aren't free.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#252

Post by IshKebab »

threeseed wrote: post #161
cdme wrote: post #3

Apple's seeking to comply with the letter, rather than the spirit, of the law in order to maintain their ability to extract rents from the App Store. It's user-hostile (particularly given that they've now hobbled PWAs) but not surprising. Their behavior won't change without additional regulatory action.

> rather than the spirit Tim Cook met personally with EU regulators before their changes were introduced. I doubt they would knowingly introduce something that would result in a punitive fine.

They wouldn't introduce anything that would definitely lead to a fine, but I don't see why they wouldn't introduce something that really pushes the boundaries and will result in a court case that they have some chance of winning.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#253

Post by IshKebab »

threeseed wrote: post #169
talkingtab wrote: post #69

Apple's actions are anti-competitive. Spotify is a very good example. Instead of making a better product, Apple is acting to appropriate other businesses. Although the object of Apple's action is companies that try to make money that Apple wants, it is the users, the customers who pay. Apple is an anti-user platform. They are not alone in this of course. How do we change this? I, as a user, am aggrieved that Apple se…

The whole reason companies like Spotify are making a fuss about this is because Apple is making better products. If it wasn't the case Spotify would dominate the market all to itself. But Spotify has 30% market share, Apple Music 15%. And it's because for example Apple has lossless audio, Dolby Atmos etc. Not because of any unfair competition.

What do you think 99% of users care about more? Lossless audio, or a 30% markup?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#254

Post by IshKebab »

Drakim wrote: post #72
roamerz wrote: post #42

Just wow. Good for Apple! I DO want IOS to remain a walled garden as such. Look how many clicks those pesky do good gov regulators have a cost the world with those annoying "Yes I accept your damn cookies and privacy policy" on every website I visit. Writing apps for IOS is a completely voluntary job where you know the terms before you start. Don't like it? Don't write it -or- just pass on the cost to the consumers.…

> Look how many clicks those pesky do good gov regulators have a cost the world with those annoying "Yes I accept your damn cookies and privacy policy" on every website I visit. That is a form of malicious compliance that the websites do in order to make you angry at the regulators rather than at them.

You're missing the point. The EU should have foreseen that obvious consequence and written the law so that it couldn't happen.

(Obvious because it was already happening with their previous dumb cookie law.)

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#255

Post by wilg »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #237
turtlebits wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a different business model. See: game consoles.

Hot take: I don't think this is okay for game consoles either. If I want to install a GameCube emulator on my PS5 I should be able to and there's nothing Sony should be able to do to stop me. If that means they eventually end up having to charge more for their hardware to make up for reduced software sales, so be it. If they really insist on trying to force their customers to only install stuff through their app stor…

Why does this matter when you can buy other computers that allow you to install whatever software you want? Why do all computers have to work the way you want instead of you just purchasing ones that have the features you want?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#256

Post by wilg »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #212
anfilt wrote: post #170

A huge problem is the DMA falls short in addressing a significant violation of property rights concerning the hardware. At the core of property ownership lies the right of exclusion – the ability to exclude or include something on one's personal property. This right is quite important and can even be used to derive most other property rights; please see the linked paper at the bottom. However, Apple's policies with i…

I don't think it is super complicated . You can enshrine a company's right to define its market or the price for its products, hold those rights sacrosact and still punish apple. The issue at the core is not a company's right to X. Instead, it is: Has this company thru dominance of their market have achieved a monopolistic power ? If so, that's the avenue you take to undo their abuse. If the abuse cannot be rectified…

Well a monopoly is famously not the same thing as a large company.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#257

Post by Nevermark »

015a wrote: post #122
menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

I think there's a lot of nuance in this situation. First: the most vocal developers really do not care about Apple's "ecosystem invented out of thin air". They just need to be where their customers are, wherever their customers are. The Spotify's, the Google's, the Netflix's, etc. The users who leverage the iPhone to access their Spotify subscription are Spotify customers , not only Apple customers. My relationship w…

There is this incoherence regarding some appeals to Ayn Rand.

She would have supported Apple charging whatever it wanted for its proprietary “steel”.

She would not have supported Apple limiting what others could do with it, such as stopping others from competing with its other products and services, or requiring cuts of downstream revenues only tangentially or unrelated to the use of its particular steel.

That would have been the “takers” in Apple, riding on the back and warping a previously moral business.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#258

Post by LtWorf »

riversflow wrote: post #128
malermeister wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a real issue on Android, where this has been the status quo forever. Are there any reasons it would be different here or is it just FUD after all?

> This is not a real issue on Android What!? Yes it is. I've seen it first hand on numerous kids phones, that "have a bad battery" or "stopped working". Turns out downloading unlimited arbitrary binaries from in-app/in-youtube advertisements leads to a functionally bricked phone. I assume adults are too embarrassed, don't want to hand their phone over to someone and just buy a new one.

There's plenty of crap within the store. No need to blame out of store stuff.

f-droid works fine.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#259

Post by Nevermark »

lucianbr wrote: post #154
bitcurious wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, laws are taken as very literal, and any technicality that can be exploited usually will be. In Europe, they’re far more focused on the spirit of the law and don’t put up with games. I was looking to confirm or deny that statement and came across a fun detour in the form of an article entitled "What's So Special About American Law?". It doesn't address the point about spirit vs. detail at all, but is an a…

> Our legal system, like our society, places great emphasis on the value of equality. Is this satire? Must be satire, right?

I think in terms of wording that’s actually true.

In terms of the crafted impact, not so much.

A lot of inequality is enacted in the name of equality.

- Freedom of choice (for corporations to limit choice).

- Regulation welcomed by big business to protect customers (from startups that can’t afford to comply).

Etc.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#260

Post by lxgr »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #191
anfilt wrote: post #170

A huge problem is the DMA falls short in addressing a significant violation of property rights concerning the hardware. At the core of property ownership lies the right of exclusion – the ability to exclude or include something on one's personal property. This right is quite important and can even be used to derive most other property rights; please see the linked paper at the bottom. However, Apple's policies with i…

Yeah, this is the fundamental issue at play here. I don't care what fees or rules Apple puts in place for developer access to its app store. I care that I'm digitally restricted from running anything other than software approved by Apple on my device. If that problem was solved and Apple had to compete with other app stores on a level playing field, that would naturally resolve any issues with their rules or fee stru…

This is a problem, agreed, but I’m not sure if it’s the problem with iOS devices.

I doubt that being able to install Linux on their iPhones would address many of the complaints against Apple: Many people do like using iOS, after all, just not Apple’s tight control over (sandboxes!) application-layer software running on it.

For example, I use a Mac, and I’d be furious if Apple were to prevent sideloading of unsigned binaries there on macOS, even though I could always run Asahi Linux (using an officially blessed bootloader signature path).

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