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The Ladybird browser project

ladybird.dev

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Re: The Ladybird browser project

#251

Post by user_7832 »

jonjacky wrote: post #200
LeFantome wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their C++ library is one of the reasons they can create capable software so quickly actually. They have jetisoned just a tonne of C++ nonesense and added some really nice modern features such as how they handle memory and errors. Also, you would think that having to implement EVERYTHING themselves ( they are making their own image decoders as an example -- inclding SVG ) would slow them down. However, as it i…

This project reminds me of the approach at Xerox PARC in the 1970s. Alan Kay wrote [1]: (At PARC we avoided) putting any externally controlled system, in- house or out, on one's critical path. ... Thus, virtually all the PARC hardware ... and software ... were completely built inhouse by these few dozen researchers. This sounds disastrous, (because) in programming there is a widespread first order theory that one sho…

When would you (or anyone else) say would it be the best to consider doing everything by yourself from scratch? For example, I want to build a little arm server. I'm realistically going to use linux server or similar as I don't want to make my own OS. But if I'm undertaking something on a microcontroller - there's definitely a point where bare metal starts winning. How do you find that?

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#252

Post by paulddraper »

JimDabell wrote: post #182
legacynl wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> European Union is coming after apple.... seems short sighted I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of the EU in this matter. The objective is not to keep both companies on even keel, but it is merely about enforcing existing anti-monopoly laws. If this results in Google gaining a de-facto browser monopoly then those same laws can be used to break up that monopoly when we get to it. What would…

> What would be the alternative in your opinion? Force Apple to allow alternative rendering engines, but only the ones with People already mistake Blink-only APIs like Web USB, Web Bluetooth, Web MIDI, etc. for web standards. The market is already dangerously close to where it was 20 years ago, where a vast number of web developers treat the most popular rendering engine as if it’s synonymous with the web. Handing mo…

How is that a law?

That's just playing sides.

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#253

Post by npunt »

legacynl wrote: post #152
pygy_ wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where Apple'grip on the iOS browser engine choice paradoxically comes in clutch. It is conceptually despicable, especially for devs, but it prevents Google from completely running the show. Now the European Union is coming after Apple without trying to rein in Google's influence... This seems short-sighted.

> European Union is coming after apple.... seems short sighted I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of the EU in this matter. The objective is not to keep both companies on even keel, but it is merely about enforcing existing anti-monopoly laws. If this results in Google gaining a de-facto browser monopoly then those same laws can be used to break up that monopoly when we get to it. What would…

> it is merely about enforcing existing anti-monopoly laws

It's never ever that simple in politics, and this is about a new law (Digital Markets Act). Ask yourself:

- How were all the terms in the Digital Markets Act determined?

- Which players or initiatives were able to scoot by unnoticed (e.g. Chrome's grip on web standards)?

- What is the interpretation of what constitutes a gatekeeper? (note: its actually 'gatekeeper' not monopoly we're talking about).

- Who will decide whether Apple's changes are in compliance?

It can be true that their aims are generally to have more fairness in the market, but there's always going to be other factors at play in this kind of legislation. Note that the DMA was written in a way that allowed Europe-based Spotify and Booking.com to avoid being labeled gatekeepers.

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#254

Post by npunt »

legacynl wrote: post #157
ykonstant wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now the European Union is coming after Apple without trying to rein in Google's influence... This seems short-sighted. At the very least, if the EU really wants to limit the tech giants' grip on the web, it needs to fund independent open source web engine development handsomely; their pockets are more than deep enough and projects like ladybird and servo can use the extra resources.

> if the EU really wants to limit the tech giants' grip on the web You're misunderstanding the goals of the EU. The EU only cares about limiting their grip as a result of their main goal. The main goal of the EU is to protect the rights of their citizens, which they do by enforcing existing anti-monopoly laws. The EU has in principle no problem with a company gaining giant market share by providing a successful servi…

The Digital Markets Act is a new law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#255

Post by twiclo »

stephen_g wrote: post #19

It's really quite incredible that one guy basically started a project to create a whole operating system from scratch for fun and to give himself something interesting to do, and then accidentally created one of the most viable new browser engines in a decade or two... I've been watching the development videos for a year or two, and the speed that this has progressed in such a short time is unbelievable. Now they hav…

What could happen? Why is a new browser engine needed?

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#256

Post by tremon »

jorvi wrote: post #222
Misdicorl wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That advice has context. Do not roll your own if the feature is not your core product offering . So don't roll crypto if you're not selling crypto. If it is your core offering (and media decoding is absolutely a core offering of a web browser), you should choose carefully whether to get it off the shelf or roll your own. Otherwise how would new/better stuff ever get built?!

If Apple and Google can’t even find all the vulnerabilities in their libs, how on earth would a scrappy team of a few devs, especially since media decode isn’t the sole thing they’re focused on? > Otherwise how would new/better stuff ever get built?! The problem here is that people are salivating to use this as their daily driver. When WireGuard was still in development, everyone got told in very strong terms to not…

If Apple and Google can’t even find all the vulnerabilities in their libs, how on earth would a scrappy team of a few devs

Perhaps a few devs have nowhere near the required escape velocity to create vulnerabilities before they can be fixed, nor the pressure of PMs to ship substandard code?

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#257

Post by vimsee »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #243

Is there a way to create a binary to use this browser in a normal-ish way. Looks like the docks recommend using a script to run it, but I’d like to be able to package it for my personal package repository.

I just made a wrapper script that calls the script in the serenity repo (which I cloned into my home directory) and put the script in PATH e.g. in /usr/bin/ladybird. The content my script.

> #!/usr/bin/env bash

> cd ${HOME}/serenity && ./Meta/serenity.sh run lagom ladybird

I guess you could create a .desktop file that invokes the script, or just the "serenity.sh" script directly.

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#258

Post by jancsika »

jll29 wrote: post #68
stephen_g wrote: post #19

It's really quite incredible that one guy basically started a project to create a whole operating system from scratch for fun and to give himself something interesting to do, and then accidentally created one of the most viable new browser engines in a decade or two... I've been watching the development videos for a year or two, and the speed that this has progressed in such a short time is unbelievable. Now they hav…

He is a world expert on Web rendering, and an extremely capable C++ developer. One of their success recipes is to code up the various specifications directly, which is - today - the best way to go about this. They are also heavily test-driven. He did not even use the C++ standard library, when he says "from scratch" it includes his own string class, for better or worse, which is fine since it's "just for fun", "to le…

> One of their success recipes is to code up the various specifications directly, which is - today - the best way to go about this.

Would love to read more details about this, or have a link to a video where he describes and follows the process.

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#259

Post by bigfudge »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #225
bigfudge wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could improve performance, but let’s not kid ourselves that there are many companies that care about the minutiae of battery life as much as Apple. I mean, have you used a windows laptop recently. It’s -so- much worse than a MacBook that I refuse to believe it’s all about the m* magic chips. Sleep, power cycling, prioritisation just all seem to be better implemented.

I haven't, but I have used a Linux system recently, and the experience is far better than a Mac. Even the regulators can see that Apple doesn't care about battery life and performance so much as it cares about the billions it extracts from Google for the search engine deal. Allowing better browsers means that fewer people will be stuck on Apple's inferior browser, and Google will pay correspondingly less to access th…

Is that really true? I’ve tried a number of laptops with Linux and the sleep and power management always still seemed terrible. What do you have? I borrowed a Lenovo x something, and a Dell. Does it matter which brand because of drivers and firmware etc?

Re: The Ladybird browser project

#260

Post by jraph »

zzo38computer wrote: post #241
martypitt wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow - that article was a tough read. I like a LOT of what Drew has to say, but this seems over the top. He claims that authors promoting their open source software on channels like Twitter, Hacker news, LinkedIn or even Github is "selfish and unethical outright": > Many projects choose to prioritize access to the established audience that large commercial platforms provide, in order to maximize their odds of becoming…

You can promote the software, as well as mirror the code of the software, on multiple services. (Unfortunately, while the code and documentation can be mirrored, the discussions usually won't be.) Requiring the use of priorietary software to access and discuss it is a problem, and requiring complicated software is not that good either, but it is also possible to use open protocols with multiple software. (In the spec…

You might be interested in GitHub's cli tool, which is open source, if you want to access GitHub without running their proprietary JS code.

https://cli.github.com/

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