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Write code for the web

mrmr.io

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Re: Write code for the web

#251

Post by behnamoh »

troupo wrote: post #248
behnamoh wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See Microsoft in the 2000s, and Apple now. This. Apple's Safari (on iOS and macOS) is the Microsoft IE of 2020s. It's unbelievably behind the more sophisticated browsers (Firefox, Chrome) and yet, Apple couldn't care less.

It's not IE by any imaginable standard. And it's only "unbelievably behind" if you count all the non-standard APIs that Chrome ships by default and calls them standard. As for why Safari isn't the new IE, I recommend Breaking the Web Forward https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th...

A browser that doesn't support extensions unless they're installed as separate apps on the platform is not worthy of the name "browser"; it's a lock-in mechanism.

Re: Write code for the web

#252

Post by no_wizard »

depressedpanda wrote: post #223
idle_zealot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except for maybe Uber, Google Drive, and games I understand Drive working better as a native app; it needs to be able to provide a virtual filesystem to the OS and do background syncing and such. But why Uber? Uber has (or maybe had) a mobile site that works fine for requesting rides and basically everything the app can do. I don't see what value Uber being a native app adds for the user. The same goes for most mob…

> Of course, Apple's lackluster support or PWAs doesn't help. Holding the web back is entirely intentional and makes strategic sense from Apple's point of view. They're well aware that a majority of apps would work perfectly fine as web apps -- but that also removes Apple from the equation. Only allowing Safari on iOS and intentionally gimping it solves the problem. I mean, I can't even blame them. Can't lose out on…

Honestly if their new revenue share scheme stands up to the court I could see them taking 27% from PWAs as a possible future. It would be the only thing that spurs them to make it more robust.

I don’t agree with it at all to be perfectly clear. I’m only postulating that realistically the only way Apple takes PWAs to first class status is if they get a cut. Its rather unfortunate

Re: Write code for the web

#254

Post by charcircuit »

deadbabe wrote: post #236
jwells89 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not JS itself that’s the problem, it’s the need to write it to fill gaps in browser facilities. Rather than there be 10k different implementations of a scrolling recycler list of wildly varying quality, there could just be one in each browser engine that web devs can rely on, allowing them to instead focus on writing application code.

Even if those facilities were available wouldn’t the complaints then shift to some other high level facility not being available natively?

Yes, and as the next and next gets resolved over time browsers would be easier and faster to develop high quality products on enhancing the value of the web ecosystem.

Re: Write code for the web

#255

Post by MSFT_Edging »

Cheer2171 wrote: post #245
mvdtnz wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been writing software professionally for 15 years and I have never written a single line of code for an Apple device, and I never would. Contributing to the Apple ecosystem is a choice, no one is forced to do it. Any developer who contributes to the Apple ecosystem is taking an active part in the situation.

> Contributing to the Apple ecosystem is a choice, no one is forced to do it. This is such a disingenuous argument that ignores the huge pile of incentives at play. Here is an equally disingenuous argument: anyone who sells or gives away any software to anyone in the US is taking an active part in the US military industrial complex.

> anyone in the US is taking an active part in the US military industrial complex.

Its annoying how this isn't that far off. Even big consumer facing companies will end up working for or supplying intelligence to the MIC.

Re: Write code for the web

#256

Post by neilv »

I wish I'd read this article a few years ago. It would've saved me discovering the "just doesn't care about developers" the hard way, especially with SwiftUI (which Apple recommended to use, as if it was ready) and some of the APIs we needed. It's first surprising, and then concerning/infuriating.

I also could've forwarded the piece to non-developers.

I successfully did a fancy production-grade app, despite Apple, but after I told one of the non-developer co-founders how I'd been cursing to myself about Apple (e.g., buggy libraries and tools, bad/incomplete docs, poor API in some places, flaky developer-facing aspects of App Store, authoritarian and Kafkaesque processes around App Store), I got the impression he didn't understand. I'm guessing he assumed it was much like Apple consumer quality and vibe, as I would've, and a superficial look at a developer marketing page or demo video would also make it appear like that.

Re: Write code for the web

#257

Post by lioeters »

macNchz wrote: post #68
pjmlp wrote: post #11

For everyone that comes into Apple as an outsider, specially after iPhone and OS X saved the company, I advise getting "The Cult of Mac" https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1341309 Those are the developers and users Apple cares about.

Obviously I can’t speak for others, but I was, for a long time, a part of this world (parents bought a Quadra as our first home computer in 1993, I had a colored iMac in 1999, I released a few crappy freeware OS X 10.2 “Jaguar” desktop apps as a teenager, had an early iPod and an early iPhone, shipped a couple of iOS apps, watched keynote livestreams, actively participated on the MacRumors forums etc etc), yet I have…

> increasingly frustrated with Apple’s approach and have switched to using Linux on my primary computer

That's what happened to me too. In my youth I grew up with a Macintosh, and it was a lovely machine, a marvel of design and technology. You could tell the creators were inspired, intelligent, artistic. They cared about the user, the person using the computer - which included programmers.

As the years went on, it seems Apple got consumed by a different kind of people, it gradually bacame another soul-less corporation with profit as its main motivation. They still make good(-looking) products, but riddled with user-hostile design and dark patterns. The iPhone is not a computer in the full sense of the term, it's an appliance where the user is just a consumer.

Eventually I gave up and switched to Linux, which I had been using off and on the entire time. It's not an artistic computing experience, but there is a fundamental respect for the user. The web is similar, despite the on-going enshittification, it feels like the original spirit has managed to live on and even thrive.

Re: Write code for the web

#258

Post by auggierose »

jwells89 wrote: post #197

The web is great in theory, but the bare-bonesness of the browser environment makes it an exceedingly unappealing platform for apps specifically when you’re used to developing with a throughly batteries-included experience like you get on Apple platforms. Where on macOS a highly capable, polished app can be easily be developed with a list of dependencies and sub-dependencies that can be counted on a single hand (and…

I find that developing with Electron is a much nicer experience than developing for Apple UIs. And I've written my share of iOS/iPad apps starting over 15 years ago.

The nice thing about the Web is that there usually is a library/framework that fits your needs (Electron, for example). For Apple, often there is no good library. Also SwiftUI is so buggy. React just works, and is conceptually simpler (folks, two-way data binding is a bad idea). Apple has this whole idea of making everything simpler for you, but are often making everything more cumbersome and difficult for you.

Re: Write code for the web

#259

Post by FredPret »

yCombLinks wrote: post #228
FredPret wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because you're doing something much harder with web dev. You're making something that works almost everywhere. It's actually insane this is even possible. I bet one day, computronium will run Javascript.

Nah, the shitty parts of web dev are in basic building blocks other ecosystems handle without a problem. The fact that javascript can run anywhere doesn't mean it needs to have crappy build systems. It doesn't mean it needs to have constant breaking changes and flaky dependencies. CSS is crap for layouts. I've build apps with at least 10 layout systems, and CSS is the worst of all of them.

Correct, but HTML + JS + CSS is the standard we seem to have settled on, and having a globally accepted standard for anything is a unique and historic achievement, let alone for free, fast, and robust global distribution of Turing-complete computation and content delivery.

Now we can hope that those building blocks improve over time, but the current situation is so much better than it could have been.

Re: Write code for the web

#260

Post by m3kw9 »

The author is like a toddler that accuses his parent not caring when he doesn’t get his way. I mean what do you expect corporations that tries to make a good ecosystem for developers to do? They can’t satisfy every concern
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