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Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

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Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. A lot of lifeforms evolve to be more simple, not more complex -- I think what you have is sort of a distribution of complexity, and as life continues to evolve, the upper bound keeps getting pushed up as some organisms push the boundary of complexity, but I don't think it's at all true that in general life involves to be more complex.

Arguably, viruses exist by shedding as much complexity as possible. Trim their genome to the absolute minimum which can still propagate.

As others have noted, it is more about the maximum complexity increasing than mean or median. Simple structures keep existing as long as they have their niche, and a human's niche is not (yet) that of viruses.

This also reminds of Gall's law that complex systems evolve from simpler ones.

You can also see it in neural nets, where larger ones have a higher spatiotemporal resolution and can do more complex things.

More model capacity allows to model the environment and self more accurately which allows to outperform other structures in negentropy consumption often at the cost of the other structures (zero sum).

This exerts selection pressure toward increasing complexity.

That also largely explains group and country disparities.

I am not sure that non-evolving things really fit into the same pattern. A burning fire does not necessarily displace inert matter, nor did it arise from competition.

Physics and chemistry are more fractal-like possibly the result of enumeration of all computational structures (see Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis or Wolfram's ideas on the computational universe). Not fractal-like in terms of self-similarity (although there is some at different scales), but fractal-like in terms of chaotic complexity like a pseudorandom number generator but with more rule-like structures in between. Wolfram also classified such computational patterns.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#252
post #244
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sun's power density is approximately the same as compost.

Can you elaborate on that or drop a link that explains more?

Live/fresh compost creates heat as a byproduct of cellular metabolism during decomposition. I assume this is is using thermal output of this compost as a measure of energy.

What more do you want to know.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#253
post #5

Can't help but wonder, is AI an expected phase transition in the evolution of life in the universe? Is life really just the larval stage of a higher order intelligence?

Except for AI not being life yet. I'll go with intelligence already, but not yet growing, reproducing, producing, interacting or much of anything you might choose for "life". Which is cool: a (to be) life form which starts with intelligence before life!

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#254
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Existence is a property of consciousness. Kant would vehemently disagree. Not that I'm a Kantian, but he makes some pretty good points. So I think there's a lot of work here that needs to be done to make your argument stronger.

I'm not into winning debates. I just find interesting that conscious beings think they can imagine the absence of consciousness. For us consciousness is the fundamental reality. Furthermore I find the verbosity of German philosophy nearly unbearable, to be honest.

You say: "We can't conceive of things that are not experienced, by definition"

I mean, you probably don't even realize that this view is influenced by Kant. You are giving a very poor retread of 200+ year old German idealism.

For example, from the Wikipedia article on Critique of Pure Reason [1], Kant's major work: In the preface to the first edition, Kant explains that by a "critique of pure reason" he means a critique "of the faculty of reason in general, in respect of all knowledge after which it may strive independently of all experience"

I think it is fair to criticize his prose but it isn't like you don't have access to well over 200 years of commentary and follow-ups to one of the most famous and important philosophers within the Western tradition. For a gentle introduction I suggest this video [2] (42 minutes) where Geoffrey Warnock (at the time the Vice Chancellor at Oxford) provides an overview of Kant's ideas.

It is also fair to disagree with Kant, but it is pretty obvious when you are talking about the subject he dominates while having no experience with his work. The reason he is so famous is that he had very compelling things to say on this very subject.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Pure_Reason

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlEMkAkGS1I

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#255
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current intuition goes something like this: Energy MUST flow. No matter how energy is captured and stored, there is a pressure for it to continue moving. The movement of energy means that matter is always moving, and new configurations are always being "discovered." Some configurations allow for energy to flow more easily, and when one of those configurations is "discovered" the movement of energy keeps that confi…

Sorry if this question is answered elsewhere in this post's replies, but would you say that matter can be viewed as 'captured' energy, or energy at rest?

> matter can be viewed as 'captured' energy, or energy at rest?

No, matter isn't 'captured' energy any more than it's 'captured' mass or momentum. Energy is a quantity, not a substance.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#256

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

I think it was a Greg Bear novel, but a line from it struck me as insightful... paraphrased badly, "even evolution is evolving".

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Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#257
post #5

Can't help but wonder, is AI an expected phase transition in the evolution of life in the universe? Is life really just the larval stage of a higher order intelligence?

I'd say so - it seems that life has to be created via evolution/competition, and left to run long enough evolution (survival/proliferation of the fittest) is likely produce organisms/entities that are not only better fit to the environment, but also better fit to the game. Evolution will tend to producing things that are better at evolving (faster to adapt). This includes things like multi-cellular life and sexual re…

Right: hosts - or symbiotic life forms are a perfectly legit way to go. Plenty of them. And some form of "augmentation" might more socially / politically acceptable (ugh) than "AI on the loose".

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#258
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's a great way of describing this! Definitely noted for future use.

Really brings up the difference between the energy density of the fusion reaction and the energy density of fusion plus the confinement system to enable the reaction!

Hmm, then the challenge is to find a more efficient confinement for a fusion reaction.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#259

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

I would say we have a complex organism bias though, really the most successful life is simple, more than 90% of earth's biomass is plants, ants, fungi, bacteria (obviously some of those are more complex than others, but none of them are posting on HN quite).

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes you wonder what comes after AI. What's the "higher order" after AI that exists today or that will exist in 10 years? I'd guess we will never understand that level of intelligence, unless AI augments our brains somehow.

> unless AI augments our brains somehow Frankly, the more I think about AI, the less sense it makes to me that biological, single-body humans have any place in the future. As soon as we can digitize our minds, why wouldn't people begin to do so? Bodies could be inhabited at will, and death will be a thing of the past as we're able to store backups. I'm sure some will refuse and be left behind, just as we have Amish c…

Digitization is one direction but I think augmentation is perhaps a more likely one. Or a first one. Digitization can follow in a "Ship of Theseus" fashion.

And augmentation branches then in AI as symbiont versus AI as desktop assistant.

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