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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#251

Post by geraldwhen »

sz4kerto wrote: post #209
otikik wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical. The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotio…

This is just unrealistic. When layoffs happens, whole departments can get cut. They don’t differentiate performers.

Likewise, there is a huge bias in hiring against older developers. Getting laid off in your 40s is a death sentence. You’ll never make as much money again, and you’ll be lucky to find employment.

Be ready to retire by 50, because anything else is both risky and improbable.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#252

Post by Snild »

laurels-marts wrote: post #206
sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

As a European I'm curious which unions and industries are you talking about? I've been working tech or tech-adjacent jobs my entire life here and I've never been in a union nor do I know any friends (developers / designers) that are in a union. And I'm going to conferences and meetups on a regular. I'm not saying unions don't exist (probably more so in certain industries), but for devs to be in a union in Europe? Nev…

"Betriebsrat" sounds German to me, so possibly Germany?

And definitely Sweden. Many (most?) of my software engineer colleagues are members of either the engineering-specific "Sveriges Ingenjörer" or generic white-collar "Unionen" union.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#254

Post by dathinab »

azangru wrote: post #117
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

> You can be somewhere for 10 years Our organization has a policy that it hires developers on 3-year contracts, and renews them no more than two times. So when you have reached 9 years in the org; when you have become intimately familiar with the domain, and the codebase, and the way the org works etc., you are out. I am still incredulous that someone has thought that yes, this is exactly how an organization should m…

> I am still incredulous that someone has thought that yes, this is exactly how an organization should manage its software engineers.

I'm not I have literally heard a software engineer which was since recently responsible for hiring just saying just a few sentences apart:

- oh we shouldn't hire this person they only ever worked for the same company so they must not interested in learning and improving themself

and then

- oh we shouldn't hire that person they have switched companies every 2-3 years so they must be bad at their job and jump companies before they get fired

... wtf

and that person didn't get that opinion due to being crazy or so but from spending ~2 days to read up on what you need to look out for when hiring people, i.e. from other software enginers, software project managers and people which founded startups

the problem is not only is there a lot of nonsense out their there are multiple different conflicting engineering cultures out their each insisting only their way is the right way and convincingly pursuing people why the other way is supposedly terrible. Not few of them also pushing a rather toxic culture or a live style which only work for a singles with workoholic like traits or people which at some point in their live had the luck to get rather wealthy and no assume any software enginer in the world is in their position. It's just shit.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#255

Post by bluedino »

resolutebat wrote: post #151
sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

In the US, when you say "labor union", people think of a factory worker standing in a picket line outside some dinosaur car assembly plant in Flint, Michigan that's about to close anyway. The media has very successfully demonized unions, and many skilled workers believe the company line that unions drive down average wages, make it impossible to fire useless people, charge heavy membership fees, etc.

The only assembly plant in Flint is the truck plant and that won't e closing anytime soon

https://www.gm.com/company/facilities/flint-assembly

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#256

Post by mathgeek »

JonChesterfield wrote: post #193
DrBazza wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are often non-compete clauses in employment contracts. Depending on the country, they're not worth the paper they're written on sometimes. In others, legally binding.

I don't think you get to non-compete people you fire. That's an on-resignation constraint.

Non-compete clauses are often part of severance packages. You can choose not to take it, naturally.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#257

Post by bitcharmer »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

Because in the US of A anything that's not aligned with maximising shareholder value is communism.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#258

Post by Snild »

trashtester wrote: post #158
sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. Another is that during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. If you compare salaries for developers between Germany and the US, I think this point becomes blatantly clear.

> during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency.

Interesting. That's the default by law here in Sweden, but can be negotiated with the union -- usually in exchange for better severance compensation.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#259

Post by gnz11 »

conradfr wrote: post #180
resolutebat wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? And why are you working there?

On the other hand, how many times in your career have you stayed at a company more than 9 years?

As you get older and have other responsibilities that life gives you, constant job hopping gets old too.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#260

Post by katzgrau »

otikik wrote: post #108
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

For anyone reading this, please don’t subscribe to this level of cynicism.

For SWEs at Google and almost anywhere else, the wind has blown very favorably for you and that’s something to be celebrated.

The direction of the wind has shifted, but we can never expect it to stay blowing in one direction forever, even if others get lucky and catch one like that.

You will no doubt set your sail and take it to new and wonderful places.

Let’s take a minute and be grateful for how good SWEs have it - we are frequently so insanely disconnected from the realities and struggles of the normal working class and we should remember and express some gratitude for it regularly.

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