Live data from Hacker News

GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

deepmind.google

251–260 of 310 posts

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#251

I find this quite surprising actually. You'd think predicting the weather is mostly a matter of fast computation. The physical rules are well understood, so to get a better estimate use a finer mesh in your finite element computation and use a smaller time scale in estimating your differential equations. Neural networks are notoriously bad at exact approximation. I mean you can never beat a calculator when the issue…

I did my doctorate in the Met Office.

Weather forecasting is two separate problems. The first of these is physics - given the state of the atmosphere right now, what will it do. And this is hard, because there are so many different effects, combined with the fact that our computational models have a limited resolution. There's a huge amount of work that goes into making the simulation behave like a real atmosphere does, and a lot of that is faking what is going on at a smaller scale than the model grid.

The second part is to work out what the current state of the atmosphere is. This is what takes vast amounts of computing power. We don't have an observation station at every grid point and at every altitude in the atmospheric model, so we need to find some other way to infer what the atmospheric state is from the observations that we can from it. Many of these observations are limited in locality, like weather stations, or are a complex function of the atmospheric state, like satellite imagery. The light reaching a satellite has been affected by all the layers of the atmosphere it passes through, and sometimes in a highly nonlinear way. In order to calculate the atmospheric state, we need to take the previous forecast of the current atmospheric state, compare it to the observations, then find the first derivative (as in calculus) of the observation function so that we can adjust the atmospheric state estimate to the new best estimate. This is then complicated by the fact that the observations were not all taken at a single time snapshot - for instance polar orbiting satellites will be taking observations spread out in time. So, we need to use the physics model to wind the atmospheric state back in time to when the observation was taken, find the first derivative of that too, and use it to reconcile the observations with the atmospheric state.

It's a massive minimisation/optimisation problem with millions of free variables, and in some cases we need the second derivative of all these functions too in order to make the whole thing converge correctly and within a reasonable amount of time. It takes a reasonable number of iterations of the minimisation algorithm to get it settle on a solution. The problem is that these minimisation methods often assume that the function being minimised is reasonably linear, which certain atmospheric phenomena are not (such as clouds), so certain observations have to be left out of the analysis to avoid the whole thing blowing up.

My doctorate was looking to see if the nonlinearity involved in a cloud forming as air was moving upwards could be used to translate a time-series of satellite infra-red observations into a measurement of vertical air velocity. The answer was that this single form of nonlinearity made the whole minimisation process fairly dire. I implemented a fairly simple not-quite-machine-learning approach, and it was able to find a solution that was almost as accurate but much more reliable than the traditional minimisation method.

Also, to answer the dead sibling comment asking whether weather is really a chaotic system - yes it is. The definition of a chaotic system is that a small change in current state results in a very large change in outcome, and that's definitely the case. The improvements in weather forecasting over the last few decades have been due to improvements in solving both of the above problems - the physics has been pinned down better, but we're also better as working out the current atmospheric state fairly accurately, and that has added something like a day of forecasting accuracy each decade we have been working on it.

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#252
post #241
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humm... are you referring to Google Flu? [1] That was a very different beast. It relied on using Google searches to infer the prevalence of various Influenza Like Illnesses in real time, while the CDC reports data with a 2-week lag. Notably, some of the queries they found to be correlated were... strange... like NBA results. Not unsurprisingly (in hindsight, at least) [2], this eventually broke down when epidemics an…

Yeah I know its way different methods. Sorry for being disingenuous. The point of my snarking was that google made a lot of noise about Google Flu but then quietly got rid of it when it didn't work. To me Googles research has a tendency to be more about headlines than actually solving problems.

No worries, Google does tend to do a good job of monopolizing attention in whatever they do and Epidemic Modeling is... complicated. Probably much more complicated than pretty much any other kind of modeling since people have the bad habit of thinking and acting in whatever way they want (sometimes with the explicit purpose of breaking your model :).

Now, if you want to see the real-world state-of-the-art epidemic modeling on a global scale, checkout GLEaM/GLEaMViz https://www.gleamviz.org/ (full disclaimer, in a previous life I was the lead developer).

And if you're interested in a basic intro, you can also checkout my (somewhat neglected) series of blog posts from the pandemic days: https://github.com/DataForScience/Epidemiology101

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#253
post #250

I've been really impressed at how much better weather forecasting has become already. I remember weather forecasts feeling like a total crapshoot as recently as 15 years ago or so.

Isn't that highly subjective to where you live? Because I moved to Scandinavia and the forecast here is so incredibly bad, compared to central europe.

Yes, driven by local data collection. More tightly packed ground stations and the availability of atmospheric measurement at various altitudes will improve accuracy.

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#254

Similar methodologies are being applied to climate modeling, too. The Allen Institute has worked on it for a while, and has hired quite a few PhDs ( https://allenai.org/climate-modeling ).

yep I just talked to one of the climsim guys and included the project in my writeup of this news:

https://techcrunch.com/2023/11/14/courtesy-of-ai-weather-for...

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#255

Is this really an "AI" story? Aren't existing weather forecasting models , already a form of "AI"? I'm no AI/ML expert, but isn't the real story here is that a new model (like GPT-4.0) is better than the previous/existing model (GPT-3.5). It's just grabs way more attention calling the new model "AI" (vs not referring to the old as such).

It's an ML story. The article specifies that the current (now previous?) state of the art models are numerical, crunching vast equations representing atmospheric physics.

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#256

I've been really impressed at how much better weather forecasting has become already. I remember weather forecasts feeling like a total crapshoot as recently as 15 years ago or so.

It still is. I farm outside of my day job and trying to schedule time to do things like cut hay is sort of a crapshoot. Hay needs a 3-4 day window to dry, rake and roll. This year I got rained on at least twice on days where the NWS showed clear and sunny for 3 days on the spot forecast. 20% or 50% chance of rain is almost useless knowledge. We went for weeks with a 20% chance and it never rained. We still got everything done but it sticks out a lot when you are watching it closely.

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think so too, but evidently weather forecasting is a much harder problem than it seems from the outside. I was talking to a physicist who told me who had first wanted to get into weather modeling, but that it was too hard. I think his quote was something like: "those guys are hard. core."

Too many variables. The combinatorial complexity exceeds what any computational model can deal with.

It's a chaotic system, one could equally well wonder how it's possible at all, even given insane amounts of compute, especially forcasting days and weeks ahead...

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#258

Is this really an "AI" story? Aren't existing weather forecasting models , already a form of "AI"? I'm no AI/ML expert, but isn't the real story here is that a new model (like GPT-4.0) is better than the previous/existing model (GPT-3.5). It's just grabs way more attention calling the new model "AI" (vs not referring to the old as such).

No, existing models use more numerical methods. This is using a completely different approach.

> GraphCast utilizes what researchers call a "graph neural network" machine-learning architecture, trained on over four decades of ECMWF's historical weather data. It processes the current and six-hour-old global atmospheric states, generating a 10-day forecast in about a minute on a Google TPU v4 cloud computer. Google's machine learning method contrasts with conventional numerical weather prediction methods that rely on supercomputers to process equations based on atmospheric physics, consuming significantly more time and energy.

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#259
post #256

I've been really impressed at how much better weather forecasting has become already. I remember weather forecasts feeling like a total crapshoot as recently as 15 years ago or so.

It still is. I farm outside of my day job and trying to schedule time to do things like cut hay is sort of a crapshoot. Hay needs a 3-4 day window to dry, rake and roll. This year I got rained on at least twice on days where the NWS showed clear and sunny for 3 days on the spot forecast. 20% or 50% chance of rain is almost useless knowledge. We went for weeks with a 20% chance and it never rained. We still got everyt…

Well it's actually not a 20% or 50% chance of rain. It's that it will definitely rain but only for 20-50% of the projected area forecasted

Re: GraphCast: AI model for weather forecasting

#260

Is this really an "AI" story? Aren't existing weather forecasting models , already a form of "AI"? I'm no AI/ML expert, but isn't the real story here is that a new model (like GPT-4.0) is better than the previous/existing model (GPT-3.5). It's just grabs way more attention calling the new model "AI" (vs not referring to the old as such).

[deleted]
Post reply on HN