HTML First • Hacker News Board

Re: HTML First

#251

Post by ativzzz » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

max_ wrote: post #243

ativzzz wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The middle 2 links are by solo developers - I wouldn't call those significant production systems. Generally tools like React are helpful for managing complexity across large systems where nobody understands the whole app and layers of of features, bug fixes and optimizations have been baked in over the years and nobody understands the whole app anymore

The reason "nobody understands the app anymore" is due to the complexity of React and not the application. HTMX tries to reduce the complexity.

No, nobody understands the app because it is simply impossible to hold in your head 5-10 years worth of development by 100+ people across a complex product with complicated use cases and customer need (unless you were there the whole time and you are a very hard worker)

By the time you create the correct abstractions, customer needs and the market will have changed and thus your abstractions are now incorrect

Re: HTML First

#252

Post by recursivedoubts » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

ativzzz wrote: post #242

recursivedoubts wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not suitable for anything bigger than a hobby project. This is patently false. It is being used in multiple significant production systems: https://www.commspace.co.za/ https://zorro.management/ https://www.contexte.com/ https://turboscribe.ai/ and many more. There are times where htmx isn't the right choice, but the idea that its not useful for anything more than a hobby project is simply false.

The middle 2 links are by solo developers - I wouldn't call those significant production systems. Generally tools like React are helpful for managing complexity across large systems where nobody understands the whole app and layers of of features, bug fixes and optimizations have been baked in over the years and nobody understands the whole app anymore

contexte is a (small & now full stack, after using react) team:

https://htmx.org/essays/a-real-world-react-to-htmx-port/

Re: HTML First

#253

Post by zlg_codes » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 9:51 PM UTC

listenallyall wrote: post #93

pc86 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I'm just talking about that middle ground where you're trying to go with this approach and find that you now need a bunch of JS framework features.

are you trolling? 10 people in this thread have already explained that the point is to avoid using a heavy framework, yet you keep insisting that one is necessary.

I think the GP is referring to when people misunderstand the scope of their project, start without a framework, and the complexity reaches a point where the framework would actually help.

I'm not sure what that looks like, because if it gets complex enough it's a sign I need to refactor, imo.

Re: HTML First

#254

Post by zlg_codes » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 9:54 PM UTC

ndriscoll wrote: post #161

alfonsodev wrote: post #148

The main feature that introduces the need of a build step is having a template engine in order to reuse blocks of code, like footer, header, menu, etc.. I think Dreamweaver MX introduced something like template files, and it would make a "build" step that would copy the files from template to actual html files. Then it started to get complex, with data sources and generating pages in the backend. (php, asp, cold fusi…

Browsers have had built-in templating engines (xslt) for decades.

That's cute, now show me someone who's made something modern and usable with that tech.

I used XSLT and XML to build a video game collection tracker. Just a page that could display things. It was a nightmare. I later spent a weekend building it in Python, added "export to JSON" and then made a tiny SPA with vanilla JS to do the job.

It's very powerful and can do some neat things, but it's taught poorly and not easy to teach yourself.

Re: HTML First

#255

Post by ativzzz » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 9:54 PM UTC

corethree wrote: post #11

React was designed to solve all these problems. Now these problems are used to solve react. Programming, like life, is a flat circle.

How poignant - another post on the front page - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38236607

Re: HTML First

#256

Post by mostlylurks » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

max_ wrote: post #144

zelda-mazzy wrote: post #141

In theory these principles are really good concepts from an education standpoint. Where I teach, we teach students vanilla javascript and HTML as much as possible before moving on to frameworks that make things easier. Some of these points I'm a bit confused on... is the point behind "Where possible, maintain the right-click-view-source affordance" supposed to be to make the learning barrier lower? While I understand…

Have you used HTMX? I am yet to find a reason for using frameworks like React instead of HTMX.

React makes it fairly easy to implement your app in a way that makes it easily portable to different platforms. With things like HTMX, you'll more or less have to rewrite everything if you ever end up in a situation where you'd like to release the application on mobile, or as a desktop app, especially if you want it to work when you can't rely on the user having a stable internet connection.

Re: HTML First

#257

Post by zlg_codes » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

lol768 wrote: post #226

mro_name wrote: post #136

doesn't the inline JS (onlick="this.classList.add('green')") harm/complicate CSP headers?

Yes, it all flies in the face of accepted strict Content-Security-Policy best practice.

I've not seen the reasoning for this in the thread.

Best practices are generally called that for a reason.

Re: HTML First

#258

Post by mostlylurks » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 10:00 PM UTC

David-Guillot wrote: post #229

robertoandred wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the reason to use a framework like HTMX instead of React?

Cost. React will require you to hire a React dev to handle all the complexity. htmx will be mastered by your "back-end" devs (who actually are web devs) in less than a week.

React is so simple to use that you definitely don't need to hire a "react dev" to "handle all the complexity". Like >95% of the effort is just understanding the basics of standard front end technologies (HTML, JS, and CSS), something that "back-end" devs (especially ones that label themselves as such) are by no means guaranteed to understand, which is an issue, since you'll have to understand these things even when working with htmx.

Re: HTML First

#259

Post by David-Guillot » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 10:02 PM UTC

recursivedoubts wrote: post #252

ativzzz wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The middle 2 links are by solo developers - I wouldn't call those significant production systems. Generally tools like React are helpful for managing complexity across large systems where nobody understands the whole app and layers of of features, bug fixes and optimizations have been baked in over the years and nobody understands the whole app anymore

contexte is a (small & now full stack, after using react) team: https://htmx.org/essays/a-real-world-react-to-htmx-port/

To be accurate in the past year we went from 3 to 7 in that team, and I think everyone has been using htmx at least once, and 4 of us are using it on a regular basis.

Re: HTML First

#260

Post by zlg_codes » Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 10:03 PM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #114

apavlinovic wrote: post #20

This is a blog spam post written by an author that has no credibility in the space rather than creating an agency that touts itself as "A software agency that doesn't suck.". How bizarre. Even more, the author uses every possible library under the sun, from Tailwind to Framer, only to evangelise about raw HTML and topics he provides no credibility on. To add to that, even the links to learn more about their agency al…

Textbook ad-hominem mixed with a side order of appeal to authority.

Yeah, kinda gross. It takes zero effort to call someone's writings "blogspam". Would love to see comment OP's website so we can compare it to some random "agency".

Probably some "entrepreneur" chud.