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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#251
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. This isn’t even wrong. Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

This is what economists call a "partial equilibrium" analysis. This is a polite(?) academic way of saying it's wrong. Hiring workers does not displace other workers because they come with increased demand for labor of their own. It does increase specialization on the team because you need to find comparative advantage, but that's nearly as much of an issue.

Ah, Ricardo. Did you know he was a stockbroker who made his fortune scamming clients and bought himself a peerage with the loot? Not relevant but a fun biographical detail.

Anyhow his theory rests on assumptions that are nonsensical in today’s economy.[1]

Instead we have “labor arbitrage” which is to say workers being displaced.

[1] https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1674...

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. Apple is a publicly traded company whose shareholders would not tolerate overpaying for labor. Further: Apple was caught colluding with other major tech industry employers with regards to hiring/salary. So please do go on about how Apple doesn't care about labor costs. And also, look at the wages and benefits for Apple Store employees which are…

> Your naivete is pretty stunning. Yeah, you know, this is a professional forum. I may not be important to your career, but a hell of a lot of other people that are, hang out, here. That's one reason I don't write stuff like that.

He made an argument for why he found what you do write naive. I think it'd be better to engage with that versus saying that you'd hamstring his career because you don't like that he finds your opinion naive. People can be actually abrasive and rude and I don't think that, that one line reaches that level.

I do find your implication shocking though. Do all Apple managers feel like they should get in the way of someones career progression over a disagreement like the one stated?

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. Apple is a publicly traded company whose shareholders would not tolerate overpaying for labor. Further: Apple was caught colluding with other major tech industry employers with regards to hiring/salary. So please do go on about how Apple doesn't care about labor costs. And also, look at the wages and benefits for Apple Store employees which are…

> Your naivete is pretty stunning. Yeah, you know, this is a professional forum. I may not be important to your career, but a hell of a lot of other people that are, hang out, here. That's one reason I don't write stuff like that.

Ah yes, the classic "I don't like your point so I'm going to gently concern troll you into trying to walk it back with implied threats to your livelihood."

Grow up.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#254
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no such thing as an EB2 visa. EB2 is a category for Green Card. PERM is one stage in the Green Card process. (it goes: PERM -> I140 -> I485. https://maggio-kattar.com/three-stages-employer-sponsored-pe... ) https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-eligibility/gree...

Technically speaking, a green card is still a visa.

Yes, but no. A green card allows you to stay in the US permanently. The only major differences between a green card holder and a citizen are the right to vote and the ability to hold public office.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#255
post #7

I'm sure many US-based tech companies can be blamed for preferring the cheaper option ... I would think our visa process plays no small part here, further the lax compliance on what "special skillset" means in the case of H-* visas. The system allows it, why not take advantage of such.

Work visas of this type should pretty clearly provide a path to at least permanent residency, otherwise the workers are captive employees, and, in any case, highly educated skilled workers that an employer is arguing they can't replace out of resident populations seem like a population that even people that want restrictions on immigration would consider good candidates for it.

Actually, if there are (and there are usually are) citizens with the skillset, the person on the visa should not be hired. And these visas are used by companies to not hire those with the same skills.

The various body shops are one thing, but I've seen multiple large companies where they have incompetent individuals of the same nationality under a manager (maybe second level) as well - whole teams. 75+% on H1b. These are "wage draining" visas, not special skillsets.

If it was actually special skillsets, I agree with you.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#256
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically speaking, a green card is still a visa.

Yes, but no. A green card allows you to stay in the US permanently. The only major differences between a green card holder and a citizen are the right to vote and the ability to hold public office.

Yeah, I know that. I was only arguing semantics. :)

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your naivete is pretty stunning. Yeah, you know, this is a professional forum. I may not be important to your career, but a hell of a lot of other people that are, hang out, here. That's one reason I don't write stuff like that.

He made an argument for why he found what you do write naive. I think it'd be better to engage with that versus saying that you'd hamstring his career because you don't like that he finds your opinion naive. People can be actually abrasive and rude and I don't think that, that one line reaches that level. I do find your implication shocking though. Do all Apple managers feel like they should get in the way of someone…

Huh?

I'm not an Apple manager. Never have been one.

I didn't "threaten" anyone, and it's kind of an ... interesting ... leap of "logic" to have arrived at that inference.

All I said, and, if you go back and read it, you'll see this, was that this is a professional forum. It isn't LinkedIn (Thank Yog-Sothoth), but it is probably more relevant than LI, for the careers of many folks here.

I'm retired. I'm not looking for work.

The same cannot be said for most others, participating here.

I find it rather depressing, to see bright, talented folks, letting future managers know that they don't play well with others. As a former (non-Apple) manager, I can tell you that team cohesion is even more important than rockstar coders.

When we share on a forum like this, we are talking to our future peers and managers. We are telling them what it would be like, to have us working for|with them.

No one is doing me any damage, by attacking me. They may be making themselves feel a bit better about themselves, but I guarantee that their propensity for combativeness does not go unnoticed. When our first interaction-ever, with another person, is a direct insult, then that tells people something about the way we interact with our peers.

If we believe that managers would be happy to recruit warriors, then I guess it's OK. I just haven't met any managers (and I've known many) that prefer having staff that like to "stir the pot." That’s not always a good thing, as a truly creative, high-quality workplace will have disagreements; just not poo-flinging matches.

Sure, my original statement was probably provocative. I didn't mean it to be so, but it was interpreted that way. I didn't mean that Apple, as an organization, wasn't interested in saving money, just that the Ockham's Razor thingy says that it's likely to be individual (probably former) Apple managers that were chiefly responsible for the suit. Kind of basic human nature.

One of the ways that I try to be a good citizen on HN, is to not get into fights, here, so that's all I'll say. I apologize (sincerely) for the provocative nature of my original comment. I didn't mean it to be that way, but understand how it was interpreted. That's on me. I should have worded it different.

Now, why don't we all just take a few breaths, and remember that we're (probably) all grown-ups?

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#258
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every group does this, but its okay to openly write discriminatory shit against Indians and chinese online. Just look at the academic hiring phds for aerospace related department in US and tell me its not filled with hispanics. When you start pointing fingers at people other than Indian/SEA and Chinese now it gets into the racist territory.

Claims observing that Indians tend to hire Indians is discriminatory. Observed that Hispanics hire Hispanics. lol.

But I dont go onto online forums and blast Hispanics for hiring other hispanics ? I know its a common trait worldwide to hire from your own group but I dont point out "specific" communities because they do it ? Like you just did.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#259
> required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions. In some instances, Apple did not consider certain applications for PERM positions from Apple employees if those applications were submitted electronically

> the company acknowledged in a statement that it had "unintentionally not been following the DOJ standard"

I'd love to know what sequence of events led to this very archaic but unintentional violation! Should be a fun read!

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He made an argument for why he found what you do write naive. I think it'd be better to engage with that versus saying that you'd hamstring his career because you don't like that he finds your opinion naive. People can be actually abrasive and rude and I don't think that, that one line reaches that level. I do find your implication shocking though. Do all Apple managers feel like they should get in the way of someone…

Huh? I'm not an Apple manager. Never have been one. I didn't "threaten" anyone, and it's kind of an ... interesting ... leap of "logic" to have arrived at that inference. All I said, and, if you go back and read it, you'll see this, was that this is a professional forum. It isn't LinkedIn (Thank Yog-Sothoth), but it is probably more relevant than LI, for the careers of many folks here. I'm retired. I'm not looking fo…

I never said you were an apple manager. and I never used the word threaten so I don't know why you put it in quotes.

Not playing well with others? Or not playing well with you?

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