Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans • Hacker News Board

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#251

Post by lucasyvas » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 2:32 PM UTC

harhargange wrote: post #89

To the folks particularly in US obsessed about driverless cars, why don't you instead focus on public transport, which is by default "driverless" for millions of people if you ignore a couple of metro/train drivers per 1000s of people. The point of a driverless car, from what I understand, is having end-to-end connectivity without the need to drive which is pain. I live in a place where public transport already has l…

I agree that driverless cars are very stupid technology compared to an investment in public transport. All the money wasted on this ridiculous idea is staggering.

They could have plopped more tubes on rails that require nowhere close to this level of software and hardware difficulty and decongested roads at the same time.

The invention of the personal automobile was largely a mistake and this just continues to double down.

We should be moving away from cities designed for cars, not further toward it.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#252

Post by danielmarkbruce » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

harhargange wrote: post #89

To the folks particularly in US obsessed about driverless cars, why don't you instead focus on public transport, which is by default "driverless" for millions of people if you ignore a couple of metro/train drivers per 1000s of people. The point of a driverless car, from what I understand, is having end-to-end connectivity without the need to drive which is pain. I live in a place where public transport already has l…

Because cars are extremely convenient.

Even the cities with great public transport are full of cars. There is a reason.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#253

Post by edgyquant » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #229

robertlagrant wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because it's a hard problem, not because of local government.

I think the point of the comment was: is this even a problem that needs to be solved because we already have a perfectly good solution, it's just that nobody (for REASONS) wants to implement the solution. So, some company has to solve a "hard problem." A perfect "this is why we can't have nice things."

Not everyone agrees that public transport and rebuilding cities around them is a good idea. That’s what you people who are obsessed with trains and busses don’t get. Self driving cars are still cars, and cars come with a freedom public transportation can’t match. It’s more likely that self driving cars become public transportation than we enact the fantasy that the US changes it’s entire cultural mindset to hate individual choice.

I for one don’t want to ride a bus, every time I’ve been on one there’s been some drugged out maniac sketching everyone out. They’re also usually gross like public bathrooms and building more, forcing everyone to use them, isn’t going away to change that.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#254

Post by MagicMoonlight » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 2:40 PM UTC

harhargange wrote: post #89

To the folks particularly in US obsessed about driverless cars, why don't you instead focus on public transport, which is by default "driverless" for millions of people if you ignore a couple of metro/train drivers per 1000s of people. The point of a driverless car, from what I understand, is having end-to-end connectivity without the need to drive which is pain. I live in a place where public transport already has l…

Because it’s fucking gross and you get stabbed on it.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#255

Post by hyperman1 » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #223

kortilla wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dozens of billions are being poured in. That’s we got the California high speed rail connecting nowhere to nothing and BART just barely making it to San Jose. None of that still fixes the last mile problem of suburbia, and buses aren’t a solution. They are slow, too infrequent, and generally uncomfortable.

> They are slow, too infrequent, and generally uncomfortable. Uh, make them more frequent, more comfortable and faster? I spend the last 15 minutes of my commute on a bus. Driving vs. bus + train = 3 minutes. I can drive, probably get stuck in traffic, get pissed at angry drivers ... or just chill on a bus and train for 45 minutes. The only time it is worth driving is when I need to-the-minute exactness of when to ar…

Uncomfortable is harder to fix than it looks.

Chairs in our bus stops are designed to be uncomfy to make sure people don't sleep in them, especially not when laying down.

There were too many drunk people sleeping in them, making things messy. The bus company gave up and decided low-comfort chairs were better than puke-filled chairs.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#256

Post by smugglerFlynn » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 2:51 PM UTC

harhargange wrote: post #89

To the folks particularly in US obsessed about driverless cars, why don't you instead focus on public transport, which is by default "driverless" for millions of people if you ignore a couple of metro/train drivers per 1000s of people. The point of a driverless car, from what I understand, is having end-to-end connectivity without the need to drive which is pain. I live in a place where public transport already has l…

Not trying to be devil's advocate, but to solve public transportation you need regulations and organisations that would consolidate and refactor the existing system(s). Driverless cars can kinda evolve independently, with much less regulations introduced.

At this point you can sit back and wait for driverless cars to improve without doing anything extra (public and private companies will continue doing all the work). You cannot sit back and expect public transport to fix itself - investments are needed, political push is required, risks need to be taken.

Another big thing is demand for properly functioning public transportation - is it really there for US? No demand usually means no political effort or even attention invested into changing things.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#257

Post by kuchenbecker » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

cheeselip420 wrote: post #46

SmarsJerry wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are comparing insurance rates then you are already comparing a similar area. If insurance companies would give you a discount if your car had self driving enabled that seems like a pretty sure fire guarantee that self driving is better.

Cheaper != safer or better... But at least it's observable

Actuaries are cold and calculating, cheaper is safer all things being equal.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#258

Post by withinboredom » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #253

withinboredom wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the comment was: is this even a problem that needs to be solved because we already have a perfectly good solution, it's just that nobody (for REASONS) wants to implement the solution. So, some company has to solve a "hard problem." A perfect "this is why we can't have nice things."

Not everyone agrees that public transport and rebuilding cities around them is a good idea. That’s what you people who are obsessed with trains and busses don’t get. Self driving cars are still cars, and cars come with a freedom public transportation can’t match. It’s more likely that self driving cars become public transportation than we enact the fantasy that the US changes it’s entire cultural mindset to hate indi…

> every time I’ve been on one there’s been some drugged out maniac sketching everyone out.

I'd never been on a bus until I moved out of the US, and I've never run into that problem.

> you people who are obsessed with trains and busses

I'm not obsessed, I grew up in the US. I drove a car every day since I was 16.5 years old, well into my 30s. I also drove fuel trucks, tractors, boats, and so much more during my life in the US. It wasn't until I moved out of the US that I saw a different way of living. Does it have issues? Yep. Does it mean I can live without a car payment, insurance, and maintenance costs? Hell yeah, and that is a lot of money.

Do I miss having a car? Yes! I actually do. However, when I need one, I can usually rent an electric BMW one for a few hours for ~50 USD an hour, or ~100 for a day. But realistically, on average, I only need a car for a day, every few months.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#259

Post by withinboredom » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

hyperman1 wrote: post #255

withinboredom wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are slow, too infrequent, and generally uncomfortable. Uh, make them more frequent, more comfortable and faster? I spend the last 15 minutes of my commute on a bus. Driving vs. bus + train = 3 minutes. I can drive, probably get stuck in traffic, get pissed at angry drivers ... or just chill on a bus and train for 45 minutes. The only time it is worth driving is when I need to-the-minute exactness of when to ar…

Uncomfortable is harder to fix than it looks. Chairs in our bus stops are designed to be uncomfy to make sure people don't sleep in them, especially not when laying down. There were too many drunk people sleeping in them, making things messy. The bus company gave up and decided low-comfort chairs were better than puke-filled chairs.

The bus stops around here don't even have seats usually. However, they run every 15 minutes on weekdays, and every 30 minutes on weekends. So, you usually just walk or bike there a few minutes before the bus shows up. You maybe wait 3 minutes for the bus. Google Maps is awesome for knowing exactly when the bus will show up too.

Re: Waymo says insurance data shows its driverless cars are safer than humans

#260

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 3:24 PM UTC

Swenrekcah wrote: post #153

cipheredStones wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that someone always makes this sort of comment when driverless cars come up is really weird to me. I've never owned a car, use public transit very regularly, and think the state of it in the US is pretty bad and underinvested in. However, that's due to a huge set of systemic factors (political, organizational, spatial, ...) which nobody seems to have made much progress on, and not for lack of trying. Yeah, i…

It is because one of the go-to talking points for postponing and diffusing support for better transit is the promise of self driving cars that will somehow solve everything. It doesn’t make sense because the traffic jam problem with cars comes not from human drivers but the physics of the car itself, but it is a persistent talking point nevertheless.

I don't think this is true at all. There are at least 5 talking points that are much more common and frankly more persuasive than the promise of self driving cars.

1. Special interest group capture has made building public transit impossibly expensive. Waymo's entire $30B valuation wouldn't even fix NYC's subway and finish the 2nd ave expansion.

2. American's don't like public transit because it involves being in confined space with other people, and a variety of cultural factors make that more unpleasant than it is in other countries. There is no culture of shame here so people on public transit are commonly extremely annoying and there's no law enforcement in many large cities so you just have to deal with it.

3. Most americans live in suburbia where robust public transit just isn't possible. It can be improved but mostly that just means commuter rail which still requires using a car for everything other than commuting, and usually people drive to the commuter rail station anyway.

4. We already have all the road infrustrure needed for transportation

5. Even in the best of circumstances public transit is more of a hassle than just driving directly from point a to point b