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Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#251

Post by Natsu »

omginternets wrote: post #231
Natsu wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip I've seen the results ketamine can give first hand, and the dangers of it, but I'm more convinced it may just be getting proper sleep given the connection between sleep apnea and depression. I would bet that if they engineer a version that does not cause psychosis it will work just as well for the population it does work on. And we should not be quick to dis…

To your point, I think that what you describe is also a common cause for depression. As Freud said (paraphrasing): most of my patient's aren't mentally ill, they just haven't learned how to live well. There is much to be said for the idea that psychological needs are (mostly) physiological needs like sleep, food, water and exercise. If we extend that to include social needs like love, security, a healthy sex life, st…

In our case, I think sleep apnea is a cause. Tripping was never really happening and relief brought on by ketamine was never more than temporary.

But it is true that ketamine can cure depression, at least for a time. It's effectiveness is not something you merely guess at like most meds, if it's working, it seems to simply get rid of the depression outright.

So... definite potential and definite danger, though I think the trips are likely harmful, rather than being the benefit of it.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#252

Post by Forgotthepass8 »

sli wrote: post #38
JohnMakin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which one?

I didn't watch a lot of House MD but I believe I know what's being referred to. There was an arc where House was administered ketamine as part of a treatment for his leg and he started walking without his cane, suggesting that his condition was being caused by psychological trauma long after his leg had physically recovered.

That's a bingo

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#253

Post by omscs99 »

EL_Loco wrote: post #200

From a pretty good essay written by someone who lived through the original "psychedelics will expand your mind" era of the 60s and 70s: "“Enlightenment in a pill,” many have pointed out, is a quintessentially American concept. Who’s got time for all that prayer and study and meditation and practice when there’s an easier, faster way? But there isn’t. Therein lies the great danger of LSD and its dopey cousin, marijuan…

> only to end up, a decade or two later, in either a regular struggling life like so many others, or a downright bad place

It isn’t like they transform into the ubermensch and transcend the bodily functions of eating and shitting. At the end of the day we all have insecurities

You can be struggling, you can be in a bad place, but that’s orthogonal to feeling connected and spiritually awake

And I’m not saying drugs are how you can (or should) get there, just that the material conditions that someone is living in have nothing to do with being “there”

And by “there”, I mean a sense of abandonment of self to the fabric that you arose out of. Which is not the same thing as conformity, more like a sense of understanding and acceptance of where you belong in the grand scheme of things

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#254

Post by bowsamic »

omginternets wrote: post #237
bowsamic wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prejudice against it is huge to be honest. I am a Jodo Shinshu Buddhist and a majority of other Buddhists online mock me for using religion in the way you describe, that is, to connect with the Absolute and to understand my life. Not even just the secular ones, who call me pathetic for believing in Amida Buddha or Pure Lands, but even the very religious ones, who say that I am arrogant for thinking that I can giv…

>to connect with the Absolute and to understand my life That's very unfortunate, seeing as it's the entire point of religion... Your experience tracks very closely with my involvement with Roman Catholicism in my childhood and adolescence. It's frustrating beyond words, and has largely put me off from participating in religious institutions. Thankfully, there are some incredible thinkers who have written books!

Thankfully religious institutions in other cultures have not insisted on our separation from the actual experience of religion

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#255

Post by mrkeen »

pbj1968 wrote: post #194

If any of this stuff actually worked we’d already be using it. Similarly how every medical problem hadn’t gone away in states that legalized marijuana.

> how every medical problem hadn’t gone away in states that legalized marijuana.

The problem was that people were being locked up.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#256

Post by dragonwriter »

pbj1968 wrote: post #194

If any of this stuff actually worked we’d already be using it. Similarly how every medical problem hadn’t gone away in states that legalized marijuana.

Medical marijuana isn’t a cure, its a treatment. The point isn’t to make medical problems go away, it is reduce the adverse impact (more effectively and/or with less of its own adverse side effects than other alternatives.)

We do use it, and it does work, and “we” were using it for those problems even when it was illegal, a condition that didn't not occur as the outcome of a rational evaluation of scientific evidence of utility vs. harm on either recreational or medical use, but based on vibes (and, in no small part, racism.)

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#257

Post by RHSman2 »

lewispollard wrote: post #130
RHSman2 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’d had a crazy life experience that took you to the edge without said product, let’s say a full on mountaineering epic that bought close to the edge, would that remain in your consciousness and alter your being? Perhaps but data would suggest not or it has limited efficacy. There is something within these molecules that combine experiences and some change to alter awareness. And you don’t need to mountaineer

I'm somewhat experienced in mountaineering and have done several dangerous trips that have been incredible and memorable experiences. I would say, firstly, yes they have had a positive impact on my mental health, I have less fear, and the memory of those expeditions make me happy. But, as someone who tripped a lot in their 20s, I would say that trip experiences are just an entirely different "level" of experience to…

I used it as have a good amount of experience being cold, tired and hungry!

And also trips. From my own experience I’d say they changed me profoundly. But I’d rather be cold, hungry and tired now thanks:)

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#258

Post by RHSman2 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #136
RHSman2 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’d had a crazy life experience that took you to the edge without said product, let’s say a full on mountaineering epic that bought close to the edge, would that remain in your consciousness and alter your being? Perhaps but data would suggest not or it has limited efficacy. There is something within these molecules that combine experiences and some change to alter awareness. And you don’t need to mountaineer

I am a (tiny bit) mountaineer plus other sports up there related (ski touring, climbing, paraglide etc), ad I've also tried psylocybin. Psylocybin was by far the most intense experience in my life (and I've been to both births of my kids and cut both umbilical cords, that was intense ), all of those few times I tried it, some 15 years ago. Had a standard dose in dried form that I grew myself from growkit from Amsterd…

We sound similar. Incorporating said experiences into life is where the benefits lie I’d say.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#259

Post by omginternets »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #248
omginternets wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The words you're saying aren't materialist so much as they are logical positivist . As it turns out, there are things that are both true but not provable (be it empirically or analytically).

Prove it.

Spoken like a positivist. Here you go: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#260

Post by omginternets »

agumonkey wrote: post #245
omginternets wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's a neat distinction separating the two. Or, I could have just as well answered "both, but medicine is ignoring one".

Oh to me there's an easy one: - conceptual layer failure => asylum - neurobio layer failure => life support

The people running the asylum reject that distinction, as do the people running the hospitals.
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