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Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

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Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#251

Post by trimethylpurine »

AnonCoward42 wrote: post #235
trimethylpurine wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The insurgency was armed with Russian and Chinese equipment that was given to Iraq between 2003 and 2009. You can read about the Iraqi Insurgency for more information. But more generally, US, China, Russia have all been fighting/arming proxy wars over there for around 50 years.

They "use the equipment" and actual support are not the same. Did they arm ISIS directly or did the weapons end up there a different way? > But more generally, US, China, Russia have all been fighting/arming proxy wars over there for around 50 years. But supporting terrorist groups is not something Russia nor China does on this level.

Yes, they armed them directly.

Yes they supported terrorist groups. As did the US. No one is innocent. But the US has always supported democracy and civil rights. That includes civil rights activism deemed "terrorist" by China and Russia.

The West represents civil rights. That's just as fact. Ask yourself, are people enjoying civil rights in China or Russia living with a quality of life far below Western nations? Obviously not.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#252

Post by screye »

AlbertCory wrote: post #188
screye wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does feel more like the 'Western moral prize' rather than a Peace Prize. Truth is, the most peaceful transitions are usually military coups. 'Peacefully' won transitions are often the bloodiest. Fear is a terrible thing, but it does lead to effective peace. With the Nobel Peace Prize, it's usually a coin toss between moral martyr, future genocider and someone who did impactful work towards peace. The best example…

> It does feel more like the 'Western moral prize' rather than a Peace Prize. I'm not seeing the problem here. Some non-Western regimes seem to think it's fine to deny people their human rights, e.g. Iran, Venezuela, Afghanistan, China. There is no moral equivalence between Western and those.

2/4 of those were in better conditions before the US invaded them for oil interests.

Venezuela's bloodiness is in part because of CIA funded violent opposition. Venezuela while a basket case now, is still a "what if" in a world without CIA interreference and unilateral sanctions.

China is odd. It is an autocratic repressive regime with their recent founder having the 2nd highest body count of any leader. But, it is also the most impressive story of raising an slice of humanity from poverty into a strong middle economy.

Western countries think about peace & human rights in isolation. What recent democratic nation has managed to elevate itself from abject poverty to being a strong middle economy, with no natural resources ride to infinity. India might have something to show over the next 30 years, but as of today, they started off richer than China at independence and find themselves miles behind. All of Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand & Japan had their growth occur under incredibly repressive govts. They might seem peaceful countries today, they certainly weren't that during their growth.

> moral equivalence

Moral equivalence can only exist when all other variables are the same. Norway might claim moral high ground on account of being an egalitarian nation, but its entire economy is oil. Remove the oil, and you might see their claimed unwavering morals waver.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#253

Post by kwar13 »

dahfizz wrote: post #240
bettercallsalad wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests. When you study American foreign policy, you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full pote…

> you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full potential. This is rather conspiratorial. Great Britian and Russia have been involved in Iran since the 19th century (example[1]). They both invaded during WW2[2]. Britian left after the war but Russia stuck around. As the cold war began, the USA also got sucked into…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#254

Post by AlbertCory »

screye wrote: post #252
AlbertCory wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It does feel more like the 'Western moral prize' rather than a Peace Prize. I'm not seeing the problem here. Some non-Western regimes seem to think it's fine to deny people their human rights, e.g. Iran, Venezuela, Afghanistan, China. There is no moral equivalence between Western and those.

2/4 of those were in better conditions before the US invaded them for oil interests. Venezuela's bloodiness is in part because of CIA funded violent opposition. Venezuela while a basket case now, is still a "what if" in a world without CIA interreference and unilateral sanctions. China is odd. It is an autocratic repressive regime with their recent founder having the 2nd highest body count of any leader. But, it is a…

> Norway might claim moral high ground on account of being an egalitarian nation, but its entire economy is oil. Remove the oil, and you might see their claimed unwavering morals waver.

apparently you were born after 1980. Who cares about their oil?

> Venezuela's bloodiness is in part because of CIA funded violent opposition.

Oh, I see. So Chavez & Maduro are because of the CIA? What a world we live in, where the CIA has such awesome power such that everything "bad" is their fault. I suppose now they're powerless until Maduro is finally gone, and then it'll be their doing.

Yet they still can't get rid of Castro, predict the fall of the Soviet Union, keep the Shah in power, or stop 9/11. They're only powerful when something you don't like happens.

Maybe you should move to one of those people's paradises. It sounds like you'd be happier there.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#255

Post by catlover76 »

thriftwy wrote: post #248
catlover76 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only roll my eyes at this and continue to not take you seriously. First of all, you're assuming a parity between the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia. A couple of years ago, I would have been more sympathetic to this point, but with Iran's brutal crackdown of late, which apparently includes widespread rape of women in prisons, I think it's safe to say the Regime is accomplishing the impressive feat of makin…

> Iran's brutal crackdown of late We only know about Iran's brutal crackdown of late from western NGOs and their thralls. Heck, most of Iranians themselves are likely getting these news from these sources, and not from direct or second order witnesses. Meanwhile, we never seem to hear anything about Saudi Arabia. No crackdowns, no police brutality, no dress code enforcement. Yes, we do hear "criticisms of SA governme…

> A "double-standard held among the Western public at large" is the conspiracy I'm talking about. You don't need to have any evil puppeteers if your media are obedient to the sufficient extent and if self-proclaimed critical thinking experts are in fact mental gymnastics experts.

If you think the media is "obedient", then yes, you are alleging a conspiracy because it makes you feel smarter and more savvy than you are. A general double-standard is not a conspiracy.

> We only know about Iran's brutal crackdown of late from western NGOs and their thralls. Heck, most of Iranians themselves are likely getting these news from these sources, and not from direct or second order witnesses.

This is such an absurd and kind of morally off thing to say; you're basically acting like certain horrors that are being perpetrated against some people probably aren't happening, and are ignoring any real footage that comes out of Iran.

> Meanwhile, we never seem to hear anything about Saudi Arabia. No crackdowns, no police brutality, no dress code enforcement.

You can hear plenty of negative news about it, but has it occurred to you that the reason why we hear less is because there is less? No, you could not give that notion any credence, because it would rob of you of the superiority you feel from being contrarian and sophomorically cynical.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#256

Post by bogomipz »

bettercallsalad wrote: post #236
Gud wrote: post #112

Well deserved. Iran has so much potential. It's extremely sad how a small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage.

Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests. When you study American foreign policy, you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full pote…

>"Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests."

Honestly it doesn't sound like you've studied very much then. I would recommend you read up Ali Shariati who was the revolution's ideologue and someone who was extremely influential amongst those university students of 1979. He was also very influential among younger clerics as well as with Khomeini himself. His philosophy was that society would be guided by the intelligentsia instead of the clergy. His political philosophy was one that was intended to lead to a freer society. And indeed in the immediate aftermath of the revolution democratic institutions called "shuras" and "komitehs" arose which gave workers and the impoverished an economic and political voice. These were considered a threat to clerical power however and so power was consolidated and the revolution was highjacked. Your parroting of the just "blame the west" narrative is just plain lazy.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#257

Post by leereeves »

kwar13 wrote: post #253
dahfizz wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full potential. This is rather conspiratorial. Great Britian and Russia have been involved in Iran since the 19th century (example[1]). They both invaded during WW2[2]. Britian left after the war but Russia stuck around. As the cold war began, the USA also got sucked into…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

The CIA's role in the coup has been greatly exaggerated. Even that source says:

> In 2014, historian Ray Takeyh conclusively showed that the US-led coup attempt was unsuccessful, with the CIA writing to Eisenhower that "The move failed […] We now [...] probably have to snuggle up to Mosaddeq if we're going to save [our influence in Iran];" the demonstrations that led to Mosaddeq's resignation took place some weeks after the Roosevelt-organized ones, and were composed of average citizens, not the thugs-for-hire that the CIA and MI6 had recruited.[64]

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#258

Post by Luctct »

michaeltimo wrote: post #4
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #2

The prize is supposedly awarded to those who have "done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses." Hmmm. Well. I don't quite see how formenting revolution fits the bill, but the Peace Prize has been very strange of late in general. By its own lights, I don't see a single person or entity who would…

"Since World War II, the Peace Prize has principally been awarded to honour efforts in four main areas: arms control and disarmament, peace negotiation, democracy and human rights, and work aimed at creating a better organized and more peaceful world. In the 21st century the Nobel Committee has embraced efforts to limit the harm done by man-made climate change and threats to the environment as relevant to the Peace P…

The people who call out the "inhumane regime" of Iran are usually exactly the same ones who openly hate America (where women can do whatever the hell they want) and display sky high levels of admiration for Barack Obama, who gave a metric ton of American taxpayer money to Iran.

I am posting this again because my first post has been shadow banned.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#259

Post by astrange »

psychlops wrote: post #122
voisin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had the drone strikes started when he Obama received the Nobel? It was awarded October 9, 2009, and he had only taken office that January. I recall the drone strikes (possibly incorrectly) being a second term controversy, not a first 9 months controversy.

Obama did more drone strikes in his first year (563) than Bush did his entire term. I can't find the specific months, but it's unlikely it was all done in the last quarter. He also authorized the first drone strike on an American.

Bush didn't do drone strikes because he was too busy starting wars. The drones were supposed to be a replacement for the war.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#260

Post by AnonCoward42 »

trimethylpurine wrote: post #251
AnonCoward42 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They "use the equipment" and actual support are not the same. Did they arm ISIS directly or did the weapons end up there a different way? > But more generally, US, China, Russia have all been fighting/arming proxy wars over there for around 50 years. But supporting terrorist groups is not something Russia nor China does on this level.

Yes, they armed them directly. Yes they supported terrorist groups. As did the US. No one is innocent. But the US has always supported democracy and civil rights. That includes civil rights activism deemed "terrorist" by China and Russia. The West represents civil rights. That's just as fact. Ask yourself, are people enjoying civil rights in China or Russia living with a quality of life far below Western nations? Obv…

> Yes, they armed them directly.

Of course I want a source for that.

> Yes they supported terrorist groups. As did the US. No one is innocent.

How are "we" supposed to be better then?

> But the US has always supported democracy and civil rights. That includes civil rights activism deemed "terrorist" by China and Russia.

Al Qaida, Al Nusra, Taliban etc are civil rights activits for the US (sold as "moderate rebels" in Syria by German media at least). Of course they are deemed terrorists in other countries. I find the civil right activism of the US questionable to say the least.

> Ask yourself, are people enjoying civil rights in China or Russia living with a quality of life far below Western nations?

I ask myself if I do enjoy civil rights if I hold dissident opinions in western countries. Am I supposed to feel better that it is supposedly worse in other countries, while it's obvious that we target 3rd world country standards for human rights?

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