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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#251

Post by wpietri »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #239
wpietri wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite getting your point. As you acknowledge, there's peril in being impolite. It's the peril of getting called out or shunned. The only thing that's different now from 30 years ago is that things have shifted enough that saying something sexist is rude. Also, we may disagree on what's rude. If I throw a party and somebody is sufficiently offensive, I'll show them the door. If they see that as rude, then it's onl…

Thirty years ago all nerds were shunned and nobody cared, so we formed a kind of semi-aspie ghetto. What we're seeing now is an influx of ordinary people chasing paychecks who brought very different expectations about interpersonal tact and its relevance.

I agree in part, but that's a little unfair. Many of those people coming in actually like the field. I don't care about the clock-punchers; it's the ones who really like programming that I am rooting for here.

I also think the nature of the work has changed a lot. When my dad started programming, most code didn't really have a user interface. At least not one more complicated than a fan-fold printout for the CFO. These days, a lot of code has direct human implications, both for individual users and for society at large. Programming is also a much more collaborative activity than it used to be. E.g., github.

I got into computers because I like hiding in my basement. But those days are fading. It may indeed have been a semi-aspie ghetto in the past, but that's not the future.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#252

Post by hythloday »

franticpedantic wrote: post #218
rmc wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a child who has all the toys is told they have to share, some children will throw a hissy fit. This is an apt metaphore for a "men's rights" movement which rares it's head when people talking about giving women as much power as men.

Men are as likely to be raped, but their (prison) rapes are considered funny in our society, whereas female rapes are considered a grave crime. Men are generally considered more disposable in dangerous situations ("let the women and children go"). Stereotypes and gender roles regarding men are much more rigid, and challenging them has much less cultural buy-in than challenging gender roles with women. Men are much mo…

What's your source for the first claim? I've never heard it before - Wikipedia cites[0] a 2006 investigation that found 2,205 allegations, 262 of which were substantiated. The FBI collected[1] 92,455 allegations of forcible rape - i.e. excluding other kinds of rape - in the same year - even if just 1% of those were proved, that's still nearly an order of magnitude disparity.

(Please don't take my comment as dismissing your other points - sexism hurts men and women. I'm just curious about that specific claim.)

  [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States
  [1] http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#253

Post by bct »

batista wrote: post #222
unalone wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't worry about minor things when there are important things that mess with your life and your society Important things like women making less money than men, being more subjected to media objectification, being the target of laws that want to deny them rights because we still have a problem accepting that women are exactly equal to us? Important things like us dismissing their complaints about this shit without…

(Yes, quick quick, down-vote the heretic -- we haven't progressed much from Salem, have we?) >Important things like women making less money than men, being more subjected to media objectification, being the target of laws that want to deny them rights because we still have a problem accepting that women are exactly equal to us? Funny how you seem to have the missed the part where I SPECIFICALLY write: " It's not like…

> down-vote the heretic

> "forbidden thought"

> I don't care about "thought crimes".

Bad news: you're not the brave thinker that you seem to think you are (in fact your "forbidden thought" is probably more common than the alternative that we're presenting!).

People aren't disagreeing with you because they think it's morally wrong to think the way you do, they disagree because they think you're wrong.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#254

Post by [deleted] »

tomp wrote: post #33
unalone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as pr…

> jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? I can also totally imagine the following situation: Coworker: Did I come too early? Another coworker: That's what he said! Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.

[deleted]

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#255

Post by thadeus_venture »

The fact that it's called the "talk back bot" automatically puts the author in the victim's chair. To think that a TWSS joke in a chat room not directed at you personally is offensive to you smells of deep irrational insecurity to me. A suspicion supported by the project name. I know women who wouldn't like that joke directed at them, and I don't direct it at them, and I know some who drop more twss jokes than I do. If you overhear someone on street say one though and your first reaction is to be offended to the point of writing a bot that spews quotes of famous women in the chat room, that seems pathological to me.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#256

Post by Cushman »

rayiner wrote: post #249
hythloday wrote: post #16

"It has been fascinating to watch the ongoing reactions. There have been complaints that we have too many bots in the channel now. There have been complaints about it spamming the channel. There were several “Make them shut up!” responses. These are not reactions I have seen the other bots elicit, certainly not with such intensity. One person even complained about the name being too long, though to his credit he real…

> Stuff that doesn't bother you (that another poster here describes as being "tuned-out"), as a man, because your gender plays no part in your job, is experienced differently by your female colleagues This is an insightful observation. Guys often like to think that they're much better at taking sexist jokes directed their way. "I have no problem when a commercial makes fun of a guy's inability to do housework!" they…

> The stereotypes of men as rapists and child molesters

Whoa. It's obvious when you say it, but I've never even thought about it before-- I can't think of a single joke about that. Lots of jokes about rapists and child molesters, of course, but none about "men" who are implicitly the above. Can you think of any examples at all?

Coming up with a few examples that actually hit (white, cis) men where it hurts could be a nice silver bullet against the "it's just a joke" dodge.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#257

Post by rayiner »

tomp wrote: post #33
unalone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as pr…

> jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? I can also totally imagine the following situation: Coworker: Did I come too early? Another coworker: That's what he said! Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.

> Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.

You're assuming that just because it's the same subject it has the same implications to both genders. There is no basis for making that assumption. Take, for example, the statement "X is a slut." Does that have the same implication for both genders? No. Because of our societal attitudes, it has much graver implications for a woman than for a man. Now, consider the statement "X acts kind of rapey." Does that have the same implications for both gender? Again, no. A woman can shrug that off easily. A man, meanwhile, would be legitimately upset about that statement.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#258

Post by [deleted] »

tomp wrote: post #33
unalone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as pr…

> jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? I can also totally imagine the following situation: Coworker: Did I come too early? Another coworker: That's what he said! Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.

[deleted]

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#259

Post by wpietri »

tomjen3 wrote: post #224
wpietri wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite getting your point. As you acknowledge, there's peril in being impolite. It's the peril of getting called out or shunned. The only thing that's different now from 30 years ago is that things have shifted enough that saying something sexist is rude. Also, we may disagree on what's rude. If I throw a party and somebody is sufficiently offensive, I'll show them the door. If they see that as rude, then it's onl…

My point is this: It was the company culture to have fun with a joke aimed at nobody in particular (sex is not sexistic). A bad, unfunny joke but a joke nontheless. One person decieded she did like it and ruined it for everybody. If you show up to a frat house party and don't like it, do you demand that the others change their behavior to something that isn't rude or do you leave? She essentially demanded that everyb…

A) That you can't see the sexism in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's this logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

B) As she explained, she was not the only co-worker who didn't like it.

C) If I walk into a frat party and see something abusive, unsafe, non-consensual, or illegal, you bet I'll speak up. Because hi, I'm a citizen, and that's not the kind of country I want.

D) If I merely don't like the frat party, I will indeed walk right back out. Total time invested: 60 seconds. Harm to my professional reputation: zero. Can you see that's different than forcing somebody out of a job?

E) She made no demands and did not force anybody to do anything. They put up a bot; she put up a bot.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#260

Post by rayiner »

Cushman wrote: post #256
rayiner wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stuff that doesn't bother you (that another poster here describes as being "tuned-out"), as a man, because your gender plays no part in your job, is experienced differently by your female colleagues This is an insightful observation. Guys often like to think that they're much better at taking sexist jokes directed their way. "I have no problem when a commercial makes fun of a guy's inability to do housework!" they…

> The stereotypes of men as rapists and child molesters Whoa. It's obvious when you say it, but I've never even thought about it before-- I can't think of a single joke about that. Lots of jokes about rapists and child molesters, of course, but none about "men" who are implicitly the above. Can you think of any examples at all? Coming up with a few examples that actually hit (white, cis) men where it hurts could be a…

From my group of friends:

I have a friend who (jokingly) characterizes her boyfriend's amorous advances when he's drunk as "rape-y."

When my male friend mentioned Emma Watson was hot in the most recent Harry Potter movies (when she was 18+), our female friends ribbed him about being attracted to children.

When an awkward guy tries too hard to hit on a girl, we might joke that his advances are "kinda rape-y."

My female friend absolutely hates being tickled. When threatened with tickles, she might say "if you tickle me I'll cry rape god dammit!"

My girlfriend is a bit clumsy and also leaves kitchen cabinets open. She once gave herself a black eye with one, and told all our friends I was physically abusing her.

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