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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#251

Post by signaru »

Horffupolde wrote: post #4

Can you convince me to use Java? I’ve never used it (only C++, Python, CL) but it feels bloated and dirty.

What convinced me to consider Java just recently is GraalVM. I don't know about the "dirty" part, but at least GraalVM might solve the "bloated" part. Compiling to native standalone executables makes a big difference to what Java is traditionally known for (portable bytecode but requiring the JVM). Been using C++ and C# for a long time now, and my pet peeves with these languages were also only just addressed relatively recently (C++ getting modules and native AOT for C#). Java being able to get natively compiled makes it worth considering among these. Now, for me, it's a matter of what other frameworks/libraries available for the respective languages would get the job done while I only have to rewrite little to switch among them if I try my best to stay within their syntax overlap.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#252

Post by whateveracct »

impulser_ wrote: post #187
northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go also sucks. It's so easy to leak threads.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#253

Post by School-Cotton »

sisve wrote: post #47
xxs wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inheritance used to be extremely common, look at AWT/Swing - however more or less it finished there, e.g. more than 20y back. There are still lots of folks who love 'protected' and deep hierarchies, of course. There is stuff like spring that uses way too many interfaces with a single implementation, doing something a bit off the regular road ends up implementing tons of the said interfaces anew. However the 'hate' pa…

Great to hear. I used to program java in 2010 and inheritance was still beeing heavily used back then. But things change, if both the lang and the main community has change to focus more on simplicity its def worth looking at again. Coroutines and pattern matching is really good features

Inheritance is heavily used in Java in 2023, at least in projects I’ve had to look at.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#255

Post by winrid »

tail_exchange wrote: post #36
matsemann wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely see inheritance used in practice in java code bases. Except where I would use a union type or sealed class in other languages anyways. I don't feel what youre describing is a real issue.

You must be really lucky then. In my previous job, inheritance and abstract classes were everywhere. Coupled with dependency injection frameworks that "worked like magic", it was really hard to follow the code inside that big, monolithic app. It made me never want to work with Java ever again.

I've seen the same craziness with NodeJS, and very simple Java services with minimal inheritance.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#256

Post by latchkey »

turndown wrote: post #235
arein3 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exception handling and generics are missing key pieces from go. But adding them will make go look like java. I just wish java would add null safety in the type system in a first citizen way. For enterprise use java has no competitors. You have c# which is microsoft trying to estabilish nash equilibrium fu*ing the developers. I am a bit worried about ever increasing complexity and a steep learning curve, but seems lik…

Go has had generics for more than a year now

Not even in the same league as Java.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#257

Post by segfaltnh »

hota_mazi wrote: post #248
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go gives you the illusion of simplicity because it gets rid of guard rails and error checking. If you remove all error checking, of course your code is going to look a lot simpler. It's also going to be a lot more wrong and crashy. Wait until your code base grows, your team grows to >10 developers, and you will understand what I mean. Java (and preferably Kotlin) are a lot more serious about making sure your code is…

Wait, are you implying Go doesn't have error checking? In what way? It has famously verbose error semantics.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#258

Post by bcrosby95 »

throy930493 wrote: post #227
neonsunset wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is an inferior language to C#. To get a superior language you would likely have to go for Kotlin. There is no comparison, because Java gets features today that C# had for years. Not even mentioning having to retrofit green threads because adopting async/await (used by TS, Rust, Swift and other languages) is impossible at this point.

C# is a better language, but the JVM is a significantly better ecosystem. Java will always be behind (and type erasure for generics is annoying enough as someone who started in C# that I don't think it will ever catch up) but between hotspot and being the preferred language of 2/3rds of the clouds I think it clearly wins.

Type erasure is why there's such a rich ecosystem of 3rd party languages that run on the jvm.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#259

Post by FpUser »

anoy8888 wrote: post #234
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

This is correct. It is about culture too. Java is the kind of language that attracts some mediocre programmers who produce mediocre code based on the wrong ideas of object oriented programming. of course, there are great Java programmers. It is just that a better programming language would help average programmers like us to achieve more

And some people for no fucking reason think that they're smarter than everyone else and are qualified to tell others how they should go about they business.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#260

Post by segfaltnh »

g9yuayon wrote: post #228
northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

> If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. Not sure about this, but a trajectory question: why does the Go community have so few concurrent containers but Java community does? I mean, even `sync.Map` is specialized for two specific use cases instead of like Java's ConcurrentMap that is of general purpose. And In Java there are concurrent sets, queues, ba…

Because the predominant patterns are to do concurrency with message passing, so having multiple goroutines trying to mutate the same container is the exceptional case (though as you say, mutexes are the answer when needed). Another reason is containers are embedded features not stdlib, which has huge implications to how willing someone is to go against the grain, for better and worse.
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