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‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#251

Post by xyzelement »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #248
xyzelement wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you expect that this skew would meaningfully alter the conclusion? That there are many men on their deathbed who wish they had more time for brunch in their life vs the hard work of parenting?

Do you think what people long for on their deathbed should dictate their life decisions, as opposed to how they felt and viewed their life for the thousands of days that came before?

The deathbed is shorthand for retrospecting on your life from the perspective of maximum information and no time left to alter course. It's proxy for the question of whether you've lived a life that deeply resonated with your values, instincts, desire for meaning, etc. Or did you just pass time.

To answer your literal question -imagine someone dying from lung cancer in their 40s. If they regret smoking and wish they never started, should that have, in retrospect, dictate their life decisions? Or do the "thousands of days" they happily smoked matter more?

I find that most success in life comes from this ability to mentally associate with your ultimate self and do things today that will make that person most satisfied. Which happens to also be way more satisfying in the moment.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#252

Post by insickness »

bradlys wrote: post #186
WXLCKNO wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up poor and financial anxiety was real, I just couldn't fathom how people were living with it. I could barely tolerate it for myself, let alone bring kids into the world while being uncertain. It didn't feel like anything condescending, just a lack of understanding. Now I'm very well off and could retire (fat fire equivalent) at 34 and I do want kids.

I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.

Looks are important, but you're lucky you're a man because status is just as important, especially if you're older and want to meet younger women. Lean into it: dress sharp, a little dressy and look sophisticated. There is a certain percentage of women who prefer the experienced, financially-set older guy who can show them things the younger guys can't. And to those women, looks are secondary because they don't go for older guys for their looks.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#253

Post by antisthenes »

xyzelement wrote: post #247
antisthenes wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well, a good haircut and a great wardrobe? A gym only takes you so far. There are things out of one's control - height, hair pattern, face shape, etc. Although I do believe that you're right in the sense that not being overweight and having a stable job already places you in the top 10-15% of men. It's just t…

//It's just that sometimes it's not enough and looks are pretty important for women An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids. FWIW, women are turned off by guys who are gross and don't take care of themselves. A guy who intentionally makes the best of what he's got is already ahead.

> An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids.

It's a counterpoint only if you don't understand statistics at all.

Sure, there are millions of short/bald guys married to women. Out of billions.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#254

Post by bradlys »

insickness wrote: post #252
bradlys wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.

Looks are important, but you're lucky you're a man because status is just as important, especially if you're older and want to meet younger women. Lean into it: dress sharp, a little dressy and look sophisticated. There is a certain percentage of women who prefer the experienced, financially-set older guy who can show them things the younger guys can't. And to those women, looks are secondary because they don't go fo…

> but you're lucky you're a man because status is just as important

Am I lucky? I work in tech. I'd say about half of the women I talk to at bars in NYC end up turning away as soon as we shift to the discussion of what I do for work. I dress much better than most men but I am short, ugly, and not blessed with the high T that is required to gain lots of muscle mass even if I am in the gym obsessively.

Hate to break it to you but the market has changed.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#255

Post by illiac786 »

ant_li0n wrote: post #38
basisword wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation t…

Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really no…

Something that still hits me (hard) is how you suddenly have to be a model, or at least try. You can't take the easy road anymore, little eyes are watching your every move.

I started thinking over my generous way of giving ethical and generally grandiloquent advice when I started being held up to it by ever watchful little eyes... I find this being the hardest, either way: admitting I'm not so great in some respects, or bettering myself. Both are incredibly hard.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#256

Post by xyzelement »

antisthenes wrote: post #253
xyzelement wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

//It's just that sometimes it's not enough and looks are pretty important for women An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids. FWIW, women are turned off by guys who are gross and don't take care of themselves. A guy who intentionally makes the best of what he's got is already ahead.

> An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids. It's a counterpoint only if you don't understand statistics at all. Sure, there are millions of short/bald guys married to women. Out of billions.

Getting married isn't a random event like a coin landing on heads... You can bias the outcome pretty much 100% through variables under your control like fitness, neatness, personality, sanity, earning power.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#257

Post by MagaMuffin »

rambambram wrote: post #56
delineator wrote: post #31

Don't just assume... 1. Create bumble account 2. Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" 3. Swipe right

> Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" And... you're in bed with a borderliner or covert narcissist before you know it. Maybe this important step is missing: vetting the prospective mother of your children for some time?

[dead]

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#258

Post by MagaMuffin »

mlinhares wrote: post #17

I feel bad for the people that now want to have had children but didn't but as a father of two, if you didn't directly plan to have kids it might have been better that you didn't, kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I used to be the person that said "yeah, go have kids" and now I'm "only do it if you're completely sure its what you want" because if you're not it's the children sufferi…

[dead]

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#259

Post by sershe »

xyzelement wrote: post #199
sershe wrote: post #196

One thing that definitely skews the reporting of this is that it's socially acceptable to admit you regret not having kids, but it's absolutely not socially acceptable to admit you regret having kids.

Do you expect that this skew would meaningfully alter the conclusion? That there are many men on their deathbed who wish they had more time for brunch in their life vs the hard work of parenting?

Yeah, as a matter of fact I do. Even the snideness of this comment is revealing for how extreme the bias is :)

The spectrum goes from, I've talked to quite a few people who only talk about negatives of having kids as long as they are talking about anything specific (health, hobbies, friends, work, even their spouse), but as soon as they start talking in abstract they reiterate how having kids / their kid is great. Usually 5 minutes after an endless stream of complaining. It's either Stokholm syndrome or social desirability bias...

To, I know / knew lots of people who are either terrible to their children or whose parents were reportedly terrible to them, anywhere from emotional distance and clearly not wanting them around, to outright physical abuse or extremely controlling behavior, or basically abandoning them to their own devices. I fully expect people like that to regret having kids, but I've never heard or read anyone admit it.

I think having kids is a boring chore that (pretty much by definition) nearly anyone can learn to do. Sure, it might be necessary, but that combination makes it about as special, fulfilling and exciting as farming rice. Most would rather have brunch, so perhaps we should pay people to do it. Except that with kids, you cannot admit that you'd rather have done something else...

Of course comparing to "brunch" is done in the same snide spirit, but even disregarding pastimes that are actually fulfilling, I'd also much rather have more brunch :)

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#260

Post by hititncommitit »

basisword wrote: post #28

Interesting article. I think part of the issue is education. We get lots of education and resources to help us not have children. But the logistics of finding a partner, maybe marrying, maybe buying property, and then starting to have children is ignored. You very suddenly reach an age as a man where you realise these things are all going to take time and that might be time you don't have. Or time your partner doesn'…

I agree with your last statement and with my close friends, I do try to broach this subject occasionally. I think there are many people who genuinely don’t want with kid. But there are many other people who just don’t really seem to have a good perspective on the timeline for these things. This is especially true with men. The idea that you can simply date younger strikes me as a bit foolish- I’ve got a ten year age split with my husband, I’m by no means against it, but I think these age differences come with issues of their own. I think 27 -33, both people around the same age. Is going the sweet spot for most people even it comes to children.

The reality is: the decision to start a family it isn’t just about you. It’s also about your future grand kids. And while 40 might seem like it’s the right time for some…it’s rarely ideal in the grand scheme of things- that puts you at a strong chance of having health issues while your kids start families of their own. But meeting your grandkids if your kids make that same choice. It’s best I think to be at that phase in life when your kids are a bit more settled.

On the other hand I think normalising most men marrying 30 year olds at 45 opens society up for a variety of problems. And that seems obvious to me even if I don’t think it’s true for everyone- or my relationship. That on a larger scale…it would cause problems. And perhaps aggravate things for the younger generation of men quite considerably.

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