Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Also tue, the Nazis basically started WW2 to murder all the jews. Hitler was driven by his desire to reunify the German peoples and his wanting to enable Germans to become economically self-sufficient and militarily secure. Within Germany, these goals were supported because the Treaty of Versailles, which had ended WWI, put terms on Germany such as paying financial reparations, disarm, give up territory, and give u…
A weird way to say Germany started WW2. Glad we can agree they did so.
Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories
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Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
A weird way to say Germany started WW2. Glad we can agree they did so.
We actually can't. Russia and in particular Stalin was also there. Russia absorbed more Polish acreage than the Germans. I'm happy to agree with the phrase, "Germany and Russia, acting together, started WWII."
Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
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I don't think there's much to respond to here, but for some reason both your posts had been flag killed. I don't think this argument is much good and frankly your posts are a little bit offensive, but that shouldn't result in being cancelled so I vouched for them.
Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with checking the references, but again, my point is that as a general rule it's really not that easy. You can think it's easy because you have had the work done for you for this particular article and that it is obvious in this particular article, but in general, it is way more complicated. Properly checking that the citation is indeed saying that often requires studying the quoted paper quite in details. Ag…
>I agree with checking the references, but again, my point is that as a general rule it's really not that easy. You can think it's easy because you have had the work done for you for this particular article and that it is obvious in this particular article, but in general, it is way more complicated. It is that easy to check a reference. The only real obstacle is whether you have access to an article cited, which any…
My point is that when you peer-review, you usually choose your priorities (unless you don't do much work next to that). Sure, it's not good that the review of the references was not done perfectly. But it's just unrealistic to think that references are always reviewed perfectly and that if you spot one article with badly reviewed reference, it's the proof that the reviewers were part of an ideological conspiracy. It's a survivor fallacy: you see here a bad article where the reference is wrong, but you don't see all of the work of checking everything else. If you were presented with another bad article where the most obvious flaw was something else, you would have said "the reviewers are so bad, checking this particular element would have me taken 5 minutes" and you would not even have considered to check the references yourself for this particular example.
Honestly, checking the content of the reference is a low gain job with respect to the effort. Because citing a reference incorrectly is very risky (there is a strong probability the authors will notice, and it looks very very bad when they tell it then), it is pretty rare that checking the reference really lead to a correction, and it is not unusual that the reviewers assume that the authors are of good faith and missed something more subtle rather than got it so wrong. It does not mean it does not happen, and again, in an ideal case, the reference should be checked. But there are plenty of things that can be missed during a review, and checking everything is a real effort that is usually not worth it.
> The reference author isn't going through every work that cites theirs.
That seems stupid: they are building work around a specific subject. If they are going to read one article, it will be an article on a related subject. And what better relation than a relation that lead to a reference?
In other words: what are these authors doing if they are not reading the articles that talk to related subject? Can you even call those authors experts: they have read few article, they wrote one article, and since then, they have totally abandon their research and ignored all the new elements that bring a more precise and advanced light on the subject.
It's also a strange argument: in one hand, you say it's easy to read the article that need to be reviewed + all the article that are in its reference. In the other hand, you are explaining that it's too much work for an author to read one article.
And also, it's not only reading: 90% of research is about debating between researchers. That's the whole point of conferences and seminars. Either the reviewed article is totally ignored, in which case who care if the references are wrong, or it is not ignored, and the most it is not ignored, the most it is exposed to people for which an incorrect reference will be obvious.
> The peer-review is the last step before submitting the article to the whole community.
Exactly. And what is the point of submitting the article to the whole community: create the debate and the discussion, bringing new arguments that are then being disputed, refuted, ... until we get a new position that we trust.
The point of peer review is a basic first filter. The goal of this filter is excluding articles that, at 100%, are not worth the time to be discussed (or not yet worth the time). But this filter NEEDS to let some bad articles pass. The goal of this filter is to be 100% sure that the article is not worth before rejecting it. But as long as the rate of articles is manageable, then there is no reason to make this filter too stringent. It's just dangerous: rather have 100 bad articles passing peer-review than 1 good articles failing peer-review.
> So you shouldn't look into questionable claims because sometimes false claims sound perfectly believable?
It is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you should not bias yourself by your preconception: be critical of EVERYTHING, it does not matter if it sounds correct or sounds incorrect. Sounding correct or sounding incorrect is a really really bad way of knowing if something is correct or incorrect. It even creates unconscious biases where we end up thinking something false should be treated as if it was proven.
Re: Historians have an increasingly strong incentive to tell dramatic stories
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think she set out to deceive, and your stated reasons for thinking so don't pan out. I believe the author of the article is right: historians have to be conscious of their narrative or the narrative will write the history. That's not being deceptive in the normal sense of the word, it's catering to a perceived true narrative, and unconsciously suppressing anything that might undermine it. Politicians do it al…
> I don't think she set out to deceive, and your stated reasons for thinking so don't pan out. If you don't think that, then you should read her Twitter, at which is pinned to the top her paper with this introductory text: "This paper details how an innovation some historians have called 1 of the top 10 of the industrial revolution was first developed in the late 18C by 76 Black Jamaicans in a foundry just west of Mo…
If you read her detractors you will find that absolutely no-one accuses her of "setting out to deceive", what they are saying that her conclusions (while they could be true) are not sufficiently backed up by hard facts. And that she has got some of her facts wrong.
"Setting out to deceive" is a fairly serious accusation to level at a historian, claims that need more proof than pointing to a pinned tweet saying "she still sticks to her story" even though someone on the internet (credibly) found her conclusions to be tenuous.