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The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

responsiblestatecraft.org

251–260 of 387 posts

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#251

There was an interesting article going around explaining accounting artifacts in the DoD from the late '90s. See 'the myth of the $600 hammer': https://www.govexec.com/federal-news/1998/12/the-myth-of-the...

I don't understand why the article is titled "the myth [...]". It's exactly what it sounds like. The US "spent" (imo: handed out) $600 per hammer. It doesn't matter if it was one hammer or the average price of many hammers.

This is a repeating pattern. See also the $10k toilet seat:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-...

Even from this article we see a pattern:

> In 2020, the Pentagon paid Boeing over $200,000 for four of the trash cans, translating to roughly $51,606 per unit. In a 2021 contract, the company charged $36,640 each for 11 trash containers, resulting in a total cost of more than $400,000. The apparent overcharge cost taxpayers an extra $600,000 between the two contracts.

> In another case, Lockheed Martin hiked the price of an electrical conduit for the P-3 plane as much as 14 fold, costing the Pentagon an additional $133,000 between 2008 and 2015.

> Jamaica Bearings — a company that distributes parts manufactured by other firms — sold the Department of Defense 13 radio filters that had once cost $350 each for nearly $49,000 per unit in 2022. The apparent markup cost taxpayers more than $600,000 in extra fees.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you can take that from someone who does it for a living (not for Boeing or the Pentagon, bit still), or not. Your choice. Whether or not 50k is actually justified or not, no idea. But the price for a new, low volume, production of obsolete aircraft spares is orders of magnitude more expensive than the original high volume one. And even it if is old stock, as soon as the low contractual prices are running out, e…

There is only one buyer for these parts. "Paying the market price" means that Boeing charges whatever they want, and that's the market price, take it or leave it.

The upside of being a single source supplier.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sort of business sounds like what we want in milsec and government suppliers, no? Reliable even down to the bug behaviors...

The reliable bug behavior is an underappreciated point and can be hard to understand. I work on software that gets deployed on-prem by customers and had very powerful capabilities for deploying your own code to it etc. There have been a few discussions about some bug fixes and in particular security fixes being appropriate in a patch release when following SemVer. Something might be unintentional or insecure, but cus…

This sounds like more a deployment/release process problem than anything else. If the customers are essentially deploying untested code straight to production, they're doing something wrong. It might not be their fault, maybe they don't know they should have a staging environment first, or maybe your pricing model makes it prohibitively expensive. It's not as simple as "your customers are doing it wrong," but if you upgrading a package breaks their production environment, someone somewhere is - or more likely, many people are - definitely doing something wrong.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt to GDP is a useless metric. The US has a uniquely low interest on its debt. Interest payments as a fraction of GDP are less than 2%, in the middle of the post-War range of 1.1 to 3.2% of GDP.

Where are you getting 2% ? I’m seeing much higher: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/interest-payments-...

That's as a fraction of revenue which is distorted due to our fragmented federal system and relatively low national tax rates. Interest as a fraction of GDP is https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYOIGDA188S

If you had gone to the primary source of the data in your link you would have seen the prominent limitation, to wit: "Because budgetary accounts may not include all central government units (such as social security funds), they usually provide an incomplete picture. In federal states the central government accounts provide an incomplete view of total public finance."

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#255
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$300 probably represents the amortized proportional cost of the original design, certification, and manufacturing run. $50K for a crash can is absurd, but $200K to spin up a production facility and get the output certified to whatever aviation safety standards apply to trash cans sounds about right.

They don't need to spin up a production facility for a run of four trash cans. I guarantee there are ad hoc metal shops aplenty. Cut some sheet metal on the CNC, run it through a folder-thingy, rivet/weld it up, add some hinge hardware. You're talking one guy and 2-4 days, including the CAD work.

Is your metal you are using NIST certified and traceable?

How about your welds? One guy, so yours saying he inspected his own work and no sign-off?!

You gonna retain those records? ASA-100, Distributor Quality System Standard, paragraph 12: “The distributor shall maintain documentation of traceability for at least 7 years…

Here is a small non-exhaustive list I found of what you need:

     Did your shipment meet all the customer’s requirements? Note that this extends to more than just PN, QTY and ship-to. Failure to read and heed those pesky T&Cs (the Terms and Conditions on a typical PO or RO) is a frequent NCR.
    Who signed your C of C/Material Cert? Are they authorized to do so (cross checked to the Roster)?
    Where was the part obtained from? Are they on the Approved Suppliers List?
    Did you send the part to a repair station/AMO? Are they on the Approved Suppliers List?
    Whomever you claim to have trace to, is the chain of custody acceptably documented?
    Are part numbers, serial numbers, and condition in harmony?
    If there were any deviations from what the customer required, was there reasonable documentation in the record showing the customer’s acceptance of the deviation? 
https://www.aviationsuppliers.org/the-importance-of-aircraft...

Anyway, good luck with your metal shop business and running parts through the folder-thingy. Please bear in mind that the link I provided is just a small look at the regulations that govern Civil Aircraft and that Mil-Spec is an entirely different beast, but I am sure you know that already!

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#256
post #181
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is messy when it comes to free market... Pentagon: "Oh hey, I need special bolt X" FreeMarket: "Sorry, was too expensive to make that here so we're making special bolt X in China" Pentagon: "Um, but we are shooting China right now" FreeMarket: "Don't worry I can get a production line setup in 3 months for 100 million dollars" Pentagon: "But I need special bolt X TODAY!"

gets some bunch of machinists in a room full of lathes and starts cranking now all of them make silicon valley money off their skills just because of how bloated military contracting is*

Why should Silicon Valley people be the only ones to make Silicon Valley money off their skills?

There's nothing inherent or ontological about tech that demands the money it does. It's needed, and the money is available, so that happens. If you know how to work a lathe, and the money is available, you deserve to be able to get it.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#257
(2023) $52k trash can: https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/06/20/the-pentagons-5...

> In 2020, the Pentagon paid Boeing over $200,000 for four of the trash cans, translating to roughly $51,606 per unit. In a 2021 contract, the company charged $36,640 each for 11 trash containers, resulting in a total cost of more than $400,000. The apparent overcharge cost taxpayers an extra $600,000 between the two contracts.

> In another case, Lockheed Martin hiked the price of an electrical conduit for the P-3 plane as much as 14 fold, costing the Pentagon an additional $133,000 between 2008 and 2015.

> Jamaica Bearings — a company that distributes parts manufactured by other firms — sold the Department of Defense 13 radio filters that had once cost $350 each for nearly $49,000 per unit in 2022. The apparent markup cost taxpayers more than $600,000 in extra fees.

(2018) $10k toilet seat: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-...

> U.S. Air Force paid about $10,000 each to replace toilet seat covers on the C-5 Galaxy, a Vietnam-era military cargo plane that is still in service, at least three times and as recently as last year.

(1985) $34,560 for 54 toilet covers ($640 each) by Lockheed: https://web.archive.org/web/20081017195946/http://www.time.c...

> President Ronald Reagan held a televised news conference in 1987, where he held up one of these shrouds and stated: "We didn't buy any $600 toilet seat. We bought a $600 molded plastic cover for the entire toilet system."

(1983) $435 hammer (supposedly an accounting error): https://sci-hub.se/https://www.jstor.org/stable/41635361

> Questioning the $435 cost, the chief petty officer made agency inquiries. This led to several agency investigations and an audit conducted by the Naval Audit Service, which determined that the Gould contract contained "excess costs of about $729,000." The Pentagon responded by issuing a public announcement that Gould had overcharged the Navy and that not only was the DoD seeking immediate repayment from Gould, but also that the DoD needed to make "major changes" in the way it procured spare parts. Although Gould believed that the Navy's audit was flawed, it agreed to make a good faith repayment of $84,000 in August 1983 to appease the DoD.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#258

The problem is not the Pentagon's $52,000 trash can, but the US' $858,000,000,000 trash heap which is the defense budget: other than massive corruption and unaccountable-for assets - the actual delivery of this budget is military intervention, occupation and war-mongering all over the world. Not to mention the danger of nuclear holocaust. And - almost all members of the congress vote for these monstrosities. Here are…

US Military is one of the largest (the largest?) Jobs Creator in the US. Cities can literally be made or break by the Military (and other Gov functions) moving there or leaving. A vote against the military is a vote for more unemployment in your district.

Ah yes the ole Broken Window Fallacy rears its ugly head once again.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#259
I mean it's obvious. Regulatory capture

> About half of the Biden administration’s $842 billion Pentagon budget request goes to contractors. In 2022, roughly 30 percent of military spending went to the “big five” weapons makers, which include Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, and Northrop Grumman.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#260
People kept talking corruptions in Russian military. Remember they have only about 60B usd a year and able to hold off entire NATO offensive in Ukraine while USA got defeated by Talebans on near 10T usd budget. Who has more corruptions problem? Seriously why I get taxed by IRS while they get to spent corruptly and still keep telling me how bad Russians misused their 60B and had to fight with some kind of shovels? Look at those Generals and contractors living. A lot of them earning way more than those in senior position of sillicon tech. So many of American weapons fall flat in ME and Ukraine. If you guys know people working in military maintenance, the amount of fixing are just mind boggling for such expensive weaponry and yet still fail in real war.
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