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French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#251

Post by pbhjpbhj »

lannisterstark wrote: post #69
sofixa wrote: post #17

As others have mentioned, context matters a lot. The arrested group came back from Syria (where they fought alongside YPG against ISIS) radicalised, and were monitored ever since then. Their alleged crime isn't using Signal, it's just that a French anti-terrorism law allows to be arrested for "organisation with the intent to commit terrorist acts", which the DGSI(internal intelligence services) claims a radicalised g…

>context matters a lot Not in this current context. You can't detain someone willy nilly for 'intentions' without such intentions being explicitly stated as proof in letters, emails, messages, threats etc. This is authoritarian pandering 101.

>You can't detain someone willy nilly for 'intentions'

AIUI that's lawful in the UK, you can detain people under the terrorism act with only suspicion of intent. It does make some sense, it weighs the level of evidence inversely with the potentially large-scale of awful outcomes. (My understanding hear may be flawed/wrong.)

In order for that not to slip into fascism you need a forthright government that is honourable and believes in the rule of law ... both things the current UK government has proven they do not have.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#252

Post by relativ575 »

kachnuv_ocasek wrote: post #178
lm28469 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fighting for a foreign nation and/or mercenaries is illegal in itself

Some countries made an exception for Ukraine…

Such as?

It is legal for Americans to fight for another country, unless it's against the US. In fact the US government said they can't intervene if one is forced to do compulsory military service abroad. It gets complicated fast:

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega...

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#253

Post by lucasRW »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #233
FreelanceX wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU knows and complains about Poland & Hungary but France is going to be a shitshow of a far worse magnitude. I am French too and this sounds greatly exaggerated. Either you don't really know about the situation in Hungary or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in France (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back.

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#254

Post by barrysteve »

tokai wrote: post #214
beremaki wrote: post #158

Situation in France will not end well. Both rule of law and liberal democracy are increasingly damaged. Our institutions are so weak that we are one election away from a complete disaster. Our constitution always concentrated a lot of power in the hand of the president but there is no effective counter-power left. The government set multiple precedent that violate freedom of assembly and association and parliamentary…

This sounds like the normal mode for french politics. How many times has your government collapsed over the last 200 years? You're on the 5th republic or something right?

Yep and compared to European history this is tame.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#255

Post by Draiken »

beremaki wrote: post #158

Situation in France will not end well. Both rule of law and liberal democracy are increasingly damaged. Our institutions are so weak that we are one election away from a complete disaster. Our constitution always concentrated a lot of power in the hand of the president but there is no effective counter-power left. The government set multiple precedent that violate freedom of assembly and association and parliamentary…

I'm from Brazil and I'd say we've just had that disaster election you fear a few years ago.

I used to laugh at the absurdities of the Trump government thinking it would never happen here and alas, it did. And it was even worse than most could have ever imagined.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the previous government and already dislike the current one's direction, but when you take one person that truly doesn't give a f**, they can ruin a country in ways you didn't even know existed.

But I don't really see a way out though. Most politicians here (probably everywhere if we're honest) are corrupt so you always choose between the lesser of many evils. The obvious solution is to actually use our collective power to rebel and really enact change - something ironically we say the French are good at - but it simply never happens. Looking at the French protests against the rise of retirement age gave me hope. But then you look at the outcome and it's always the same: we lose.

I honestly think the system has won. Capitalism successfully made everyone (myself included) just comfortable enough to not really take action. We are the proverbial frogs in boiling water and slowly but surely normalizing this insane world we live in today giving away all our hard-fought rights to our capitalist overlords.

We get upset and yell at the void, Twitter, HN, blog posts and don't actually DO anything. I truly hate myself for that. Meanwhile those that actually do something, have their efforts stifled away by governments with ease.

Perhaps I am a bit too pessimistic about this, but from where I stand, there's no way out.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#257

Post by nmlr »

piokoch wrote: post #228
beremaki wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I say is that IF France becomes an illiberal democracy, it is going to be far worse for EU than what happened in Hungary. Hungary and France are absolutely not on the same scale

Wait for the next election in Germany. AfD has just climbed to the 2nd place with 20% of support and is still growing. Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban.

Protest votes. What would one expect if the Green party is suddenly a warmongering party and Scholz is silent about Nord Stream even after the Washington Post essentially blames Ukraine?

Also, while I don't like the people in the AfD, they are still mostly the former right wing of the CDU/CSU, which is not comparable to Orban. CDU/CSU can blame itself for mismanagement.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#258

Post by School-Cotton »

junon wrote: post #209
progbits wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judges are not there to come up with the law, only to execute it.

That's not what I asked, nor is it what I implied.

It’s not clear what exactly you were asking or how it relates to the post you were replying to.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#259

Post by wott »

lm28469 wrote: post #168
csomar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As others have mentioned, context matters a lot. No, it does not. While this group is indeed suspicious, detaining them without a proof (and using whatsapp as your proof) opens a serious precedent. Now anyone can be detain for that. And it'll be used for serious suspicious cases later but also will be used against someone like you because someone in the police didn't like how you walk.

Fighting for a foreign nation and/or mercenaries is illegal in itself

> Fighting for a foreign nation and/or mercenaries is illegal in itself

Nope. It depends on countries (and mood of the year).

Some countries allow to become mercenaries and forbid voluntary fighting for a foreign nation. Some countries allow to voluntary fight for a foreign nation and forbid to become mercenaries. And so on.

France even has the French Foreign Legion...

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#260

Post by newsclues »

skitout wrote: post #234
cm2187 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have not been dissolved because they left their phone at home, they have been dissolved because it was a violent organisation that was systematically attacking the police and destroying property. And given the sort of stuff they brought to their protests: swords, machettes, baseball bats, jerrycan, bricks, fireworks, petanque balls, Molotov cocktails, fire bombs, etc, it is particularly disingenuous to pretend t…

They indeed sometimes destroyed some properties But you cannot blame them for the violence in the protest they co-organized. People are free to attend the protest, and they cannot control them. They never called for violence against police. And most protest now in France have some people fighting with the police. The same way you can see firefighters throwing stuff (including petanque ball) to police during firefighe…

If some Neo-nazis co-organize a protest, and it becomes violent, do you blame the neo-nazis?

Just wondering if your reasoning is based on logic or political sides.

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