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3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

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Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#251

Post by omnicognate »

JPws_Prntr_Fngr wrote: post #214
Miraste wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cast-iron is a huge pain to maintain in my experience, but ceramic pans are a good non-carcinogenic alternative.

I feel compelled to back you up on this one. You mention your experience with cast iron, and 20 semi-pro internet chefs jump all over you to gaslight you with "you just didn't season it properly bro" No. I polymerized it with the grapeseed oil. I tried it with sunflower oil. I polymerized until my apartment swirled with smoke. I wiped it down with nothing besides a paper towel and water. I followed youtube guides. No…

You almost certainly left way too much oil on it. If your apartment is "swirling with smoke" you're doing it wrong. Most youtube videos and online tutorials fail to make this point clearly (or are outright wrong, debating what kind of oil to incinerate half a bottle of in their pans).

You oil it (with any cooking oil) and then wipe it all off. It needs to look and feel like it hasn't been oiled. Any visible oil or stickiness will burn to black shit that isn't seasoning. There is still oil there. The invisible, microscopic residue is what you want. When you heat it (in the oven around 180C) it will generate a faint smell around the cooker, not fill your home with burning oil smoke. Do the whole thing 3-5 times.

But for a skillet this is just a kick start. It is neither necessary nor sufficient. The real seasoning comes from use and is way better than anything you can do by explicit seasoning. Use it frequently. Fry in it. FREQUENTLY. And when you do use use oil, ffs. While it's newish, clean it promptly, dry it thoroughly and give it a thin wipe of oil before you put it away to prevent rust and help it season.

(If you're the sort that thinks never letting a single fat molecule enter your digestive system is a virtue, don't buy cast iron. It won't work for you. It'll rust and stick. Use teflon. It's the only thing you'll ever be able make a "fried" egg on. It might give you cancer but at least you won't accidentally ingest some butter. Also, if you cook once every 6 months, don't use cast iron. It needs use. Weekly at least, if not daily.)

One of our four cast skillets spent last night in the sink, full of water (see my other comment). We treat them how we please, scrubbing and washing them with detergent if needed, leaving them dirty if we want. They cook wonderfully, don't stick and will probably survive the death of the sun.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#252

Post by cpncrunch »

smugma wrote: post #246
cpncrunch wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can post that meta-analysis that would be helpful, thanks. My goal is to find the evidence. It seems you have it, so it would be useful if you could post it. Generally if there is a meta-analysis or robust evidence it will be in the wikipedia article. If not, I'd love for you to add it (or I can). Evidence shouldn't be hard to find...

Why should evidence not be hard to find? It’s why we have detectives (to find evidence of crimes) and why lawsuits have long discovery processes (again, to find evidence).

We are talking about published scientific studies here, which are all listed on pubmed. Clearly there isnt any robust evidence, as nobody has posted a link to anything.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#253

Post by labawi »

Sytten wrote: post #14
pcurve wrote: post #9

The chemicals in question are of type PFAS and believe it or not, they're still legal to use today, though they're being phased out and banned in a few years. The problem is 3M scientists have know toxicity to human and have withheld the information to the public and regulators. Since 1970s.

They are used in all kinds of products that I personaly use everyday from pans to dental floss. And the replacements are not better, they just dont have studies yet that prove they are toxic...

I'm not sure why people keep talking about teflon pans and dental floss. There are PFAS in products that necessarily release them into human bodies and the environment, in dispersed form rather than flakes that would usually pass the digestive system.

A few examples:

- food containers coated with PFAS (usually single use, often cardboard) - water-repellent PFAS spray for clothes, shoes, cars/whatever - surface PFAS treatment of clothes/shoes/whatever (better but still rubs off) - PFAS bike-chain lube

Why are any of these things legal? They cause much more exposure, by design cannot be contained and spread PFAS everywhere you go. They are the reason there are PFAS in snow on Mt. Everest.

Pans, medical tubes and maybe even inner layers in clothes can at least theoretically be responsibly disposed of, e.g. by reasonably contained incineration. I don't want to support unneeded PFAS, but pans seem a whole different category than spray-on PFAS for "weather-proofing" that people use because shrug "it helps I get less wet".

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#254

Post by jeff-davis »

eesmith wrote: post #250
jeff-davis wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you depend on the company making the chemical to do studies and be transparent about them, of course the reaction time will be bad. You need independent studies and environmental monitoring. The blame game gives the politicians and bureaucrats a nice excuse for inaction, and not much else. And 50 years later it just looks ridiculous. Sure, if someone does something bad, blame may be a part of the response. But you…

> You need independent studies and environmental monitoring. Certainly. Clearly so. As to my point, how do we change things? How do we put that into place? > The blame game gives the politicians and bureaucrats a nice excuse for inaction, and not much else. I didn't make my point clear enough. The blame game results in "much else" - corporate profit. Enough profit they can fund efforts to tilt the system in their fav…

"Enough profit they can fund efforts to tilt the system in their favor."

That might explain things in the US, but worldwide?

Why didn't some other country at some point run some studies, call some cabinet head in the US and say "Why are you spraying this chemical on everything? Don't you know it's kinda bad? We're restricting imports of stuff with that chemical unless it's really needed.".

"The Supreme Court..."

Congress needs to do its job and stop blaming SCOTUS for federal law interpretation and regulatory scoping issues. (Constitutional law is a different story because Congress can't do anything about that.)

Politicians optimize for shouting loudly about things, and then blaming others when they do nothing.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#255

Post by autoexec »

Miraste wrote: post #131
stephencanon wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A plain cast-iron skillet works flawlessly for pancakes and crepes, FWIW.

Cast-iron is a huge pain to maintain in my experience, but ceramic pans are a good non-carcinogenic alternative.

Carbon steel pans aren't as much work as cast iron, but still extremely durable. They're lighter, often come pre-seasoned but are easier to season than cast iron, are naturally non-stick, heats very quickly, and cleans easy.

The only downside is that you have to wash them right away, dry them thoroughly. Cooking with a lot of acidic sauces will mean you'll likely have season them again.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#256

Post by bradgessler »

Miraste wrote: post #131
stephencanon wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A plain cast-iron skillet works flawlessly for pancakes and crepes, FWIW.

Cast-iron is a huge pain to maintain in my experience, but ceramic pans are a good non-carcinogenic alternative.

Cast iron is easy if you only clean with warm water and chainmail, which can be purchased on Amazon for under $10.

I only see people struggle with cast iron when they think it must be cleaned with soap until it’s shiny. That’s an invitation for rust and problems.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#257

Post by dotancohen »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #179
juujian wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about buying one. Would I be wrong in assuming it was just a matter of the order: (really) heat the pan, add the oil, and then whatever you need to cook?

Animal fats. Not vegetable oils. Vegetable oils polymerize to a sticky substance. Animal fats carbonize and protect the metal. Also using a metal spatula is a must in cast iron. The metal spatula keeps the surface smooth which enhances the non-stick property. Also wash after use and spread a little fat in it to prevent rusting. Don't scour. Just wash with soap and water.

So cast iron can not be used by vegetarians? I live with two vegetarians.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#258

Post by eesmith »

jeff-davis wrote: post #254
eesmith wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need independent studies and environmental monitoring. Certainly. Clearly so. As to my point, how do we change things? How do we put that into place? > The blame game gives the politicians and bureaucrats a nice excuse for inaction, and not much else. I didn't make my point clear enough. The blame game results in "much else" - corporate profit. Enough profit they can fund efforts to tilt the system in their fav…

"Enough profit they can fund efforts to tilt the system in their favor." That might explain things in the US, but worldwide? Why didn't some other country at some point run some studies, call some cabinet head in the US and say "Why are you spraying this chemical on everything? Don't you know it's kinda bad? We're restricting imports of stuff with that chemical unless it's really needed.". "The Supreme Court..." Cong…

> Why didn't some other country at some point run some studies

I know little about the topic, but I can suggest reasons why this isn't so simple.

Up until the 1960s or so, people didn't care much about pollution. They thought nature could absorb it. This include Europe. The Swiss chemical industry dumped their wastes into the Rhine, and they weren't the only one along the river.

The goal then, in Europe as in the US, was to make money.

It wasn't until REACH in 2007 - https://echa.europa.eu/regulations/reach/understanding-reach - that laws were changed to place the onus on companies. Quoting that link: "To comply with the regulation, companies must identify and manage the risks linked to the substances they manufacture and market in the EU. They have to demonstrate to ECHA how the substance can be safely used, and they must communicate the risk management measures to the users."

However, for reasons I do not know, PFAS were excluded from REACH.

My guess is it's for the same reason - PFAS are industrially very useful. Europe's chemical industry is about the same size as the US's, and I know it can influence legislation there too.

> Congress needs to do its job and stop blaming SCOTUS for federal law interpretation

My point was that "a nice excuse for inaction" is insufficient to explain what's going on in the US.

> Constitutional law is a different story because Congress can't do anything about that

My example about the EPA power to enforce Clean Water Act was a constitutional law issue.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#259

Post by tastyfreeze »

dotancohen wrote: post #257
tastyfreeze wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animal fats. Not vegetable oils. Vegetable oils polymerize to a sticky substance. Animal fats carbonize and protect the metal. Also using a metal spatula is a must in cast iron. The metal spatula keeps the surface smooth which enhances the non-stick property. Also wash after use and spread a little fat in it to prevent rusting. Don't scour. Just wash with soap and water.

So cast iron can not be used by vegetarians? I live with two vegetarians.

You can use vegetable oils but it will be difficult to clean. Deglazing doesn't work well on polymerized oil. Baking soda will dissolve the sticky goo.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#260

Post by dotancohen »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #259
dotancohen wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So cast iron can not be used by vegetarians? I live with two vegetarians.

You can use vegetable oils but it will be difficult to clean. Deglazing doesn't work well on polymerized oil. Baking soda will dissolve the sticky goo.

Thank you.
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