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Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

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Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#251
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is how I look at it. Major universities have two functions: (1) teaching and (2) research. Teaching is further split between (1a) undergrad (basic) and (1b) graduate (advanced). You could definitely sustain (1a) without the incentive (or carrot) of tenure. This is how most community colleges work. (1b) and (2) currently rely on the existence of tenure. Teaching advanced courses (1b) requires research experience.…

>You could definitely sustain (1a) without the incentive (or carrot) of tenure. This is how most community colleges work. Spoiler: this is how most universities work. They have teaching jobs that are either filled with adjuncts, or are contract-based; or pay such small salaries that tenure is the only thing that would attract anyone to work them.

You’re missing my point. Universities that also do research cannot be sustained completely by adjuncts and teaching professors.

Also, a portion of adjunct and contract-based positions are filled by those seeking a tenure track position. Removing tenure will affect this side as well.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#253
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if that's very leveragable control, isn't "hire conservative faculty members who are protected from future changes in the political winds by tenure" better than "make all faculty easier to fire"?

No, it's not. You have vastly more power in society by being able to remove your political enemies, than by being able to appoint your friends. There's a lot of ways in which the latter can screw up - your friends might turn out to be less pliable than you wanted, someone might have been appointed who turned out to be a trojan horse, someone might have been appointed who was palatable to your goals a decade ago, but…

"Hold onto power at all costs" is a strategy, sure, but the gotcha here seems to be that they won't be able to remove existing enemies.

It's only new hires who will be affected.

So "hire your political friends" is still important, since they can do some damage before you have a chance to fire them, even given you having additional leverage (and you can imagine a certain kind of academic who could ride that publicity to a lucrative position).

I guess the difference between my thinking here and the Texas GOP's is that I'm saying "make sure your friend are around even when you're not in power anymore" and they're thinking "we will be in power forever."

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#254
post #233
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note some good US universities pay entry-level FAANG salaries to assistant professors. If you can negotiate a low teaching load, it might be OK in some cases. Nonetheless, I agree with what you say. I'd add there is a ton of nasty politics, bullying, etc. which might be hard to avoid while you are on tenure track chasing tenure.

Assistant professors (tenure track) in decent public business schools start at $300k salary. And this is in the Midwest. And I know that the top private business schools pay more, just that it isn’t public information like it is at the public universities. Now obviously those people would likely be paid higher salaries in the private sector (even CoL adjusted) but the economics of it ensures that pay for professors o…

What are those universities? In Pacific Northwest it's only 100-150k for Assistant Prof from what I've seen.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think nearly everyone who says "I want more freedom of expression" leaves out the quiet part, which is "...for people who think like I do." There are many, many examples of supposed "free speech advocates" trying to silence dissenting voices or criticism. Under that assumption, it makes perfect sense that Texas conservatives, believing colleges are liberal bastions that spread ideas they disagree with, would see an…

I don’t think “nearly everyone” is a correct assessment. The current conservative coalition includes a lot of Gen X and Millennials. In 2022, the D advantage among voters 30-44 in 2022 was down to 4 points: https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/... . These are folks who grew up in the 1990s in a much more permissive free speech culture. These are not necessarily the same folks as the ones in the…

Most of the types of speech the current conservative movement dislikes did not have a lot of people prominently voicing that speech in the 90s. They did have a lot of speech against them in the 90s.

It's easy to spot that backlash complaint - "I used to be able to say this in the 90s" - but from what I'm seeing, it's a mistake to think the motivation is "more speech for everyone" and not "this should still be allowed, but that needs to go back in the closet."

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#256
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note some good US universities pay entry-level FAANG salaries to assistant professors. If you can negotiate a low teaching load, it might be OK in some cases. Nonetheless, I agree with what you say. I'd add there is a ton of nasty politics, bullying, etc. which might be hard to avoid while you are on tenure track chasing tenure.

The opportunity cost is still likely 100k/yr for the rest of your life, even with the FAANG salary to assistant professors. consider this: You can be a new grad, get hired at Apple, and earn an entry-level salary[0]. Let's say we won't include the bonus and you get 130k/yr. You colleague is a new grad and goes to a PhD program at Duke University[1] where they earn 33k/yr. In your first year, your PhD program colleagu…

If you have a PhD in CS and you get tenured track position immediately right after finishing grad school without doing any postdocs, then I guarantee you can make at least 200k/year in your first year at any decently big tech company.

I have seen people with 2-3 NIPS papers and a bunch more from other conferences failed to obtain assistant professorship, it's ridiculous right now.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More precisely, it would be the immediate end of our ability to recruit competitively, I wonder. For one thing, tenure can be replaced by higher salaries. Who knows, maybe these universities will get more bang for their bucks that way. After all, there are industrial research labs that play in the same league as the top research universities. And there are other forces that make people want to pursue academic caree…

> For one thing, tenure can be replaced by higher salaries. Do you imply the universities will magically get more money somehow? >Who knows, maybe these universities will get more bang for their bucks that way. Scott Aarsonson knows. They won't . Also, everyone in the field does. There's a reason tenure exists. >After all, there are industrial research labs that play in the same league as the top research universitie…

> Do you imply the universities will magically get more money somehow?

Well, some universities are quite rich. The professors salaries aren't always constrained by the university budget.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#258
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with tenure, you would need to be extremely passionate about education or research to go into academia in fields like software or mech/chem/EE. The opportunity cost is easily 6 figures/yr, for your entire career. The hours are long, the pay is laughable, the kids are not alright, you must publish or perish...maybe these universities are intentionally selecting for professors who will have a high tolerance for ab…

Since Texas is the topic: university salaries are public and used to be published in a Texas Tribune. A visiting professor at a Texas university, with probably no intention of tenure based on his career, was paid $340k/y back in the 2010s: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-creator-of-C++-Bjarne-Stro... Of course he's not a nobody, but if Texas universities pay that kind of money to superstar professors, for small sti…

> Of course he's not a nobody

That's an understatement. He's one of the most famous names in computer science alive today. You can't look at the top 1% of 1% to make statements about the whole industry. $340k/year is a real TC range for no-name ICs at a FAANG these days.

The numbers you are posting are making the opposite point you are trying to make.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More precisely, it would be the immediate end of our ability to recruit competitively, I wonder. For one thing, tenure can be replaced by higher salaries. Who knows, maybe these universities will get more bang for their bucks that way. After all, there are industrial research labs that play in the same league as the top research universities. And there are other forces that make people want to pursue academic caree…

> For one thing, tenure can be replaced by higher salaries. Do you imply the universities will magically get more money somehow? >Who knows, maybe these universities will get more bang for their bucks that way. Scott Aarsonson knows. They won't . Also, everyone in the field does. There's a reason tenure exists. >After all, there are industrial research labs that play in the same league as the top research universitie…

> Do you imply the universities will magically get more money somehow?

They appear to gain billions upon billions of guaranteed cashflow from the government from all of state, local, and federal in many forms every year. Further, the vast majority of US universities/companies raked in huge amounts of cash over the last few decades, exceeding quite a bit of other industries. I'm sure that's as magical as it gets.

> > Who knows, maybe these universities will get more bang for their bucks that way.

> Scott Aarsonson knows. They won't.

Sucks for them, pay up, they've been able to afford it for decades.

> Also, everyone in the field does. There's a reason tenure exists.

Yes, its to entice their pool of 11,000 [1] and 16,000 [2] graduate students to fight over ~1500 [3] faculty positions across the US. And, the half that do go through to the PhD track will never finish, at best coming out with a MA/MS/MSE or whatever bullshit version of what is colloquially known as a "masters degree" they have invented at their company.

> > After all, there are industrial research labs that play in the same league as the top research universities.

> Same league, a microscopic fraction of the scope. The bottom line is always there, and it guides which research gets funded.

What do you mean? If by number of topics an single institution can have, then sure, that's a given (lets see the psychology department reproduce their results though). If by the individual topic, then I would beg to differ quite heavily. Lets talk about all the national labs, and while given that some national labs are also owned by universities, these labs are still private, LANL as an example for A&M since we're on that topic. Their scope far exceeds any department A&M has, depth as well, much, much more.

> > And there are other forces that make people want to pursue academic careers.

> ...most of which are given by tenure.

I don't think graduate students are quite that dumb, I'm sure plenty of them can figure out that tenure is not very likely, even if they first author 30 papers all of which get accepted into all of the top journals in their field. Unless they plan on getting rid of the competition somehow,

AKA the existing faculty as well as other students and post-docs. I'd love to see that brawl. I'd pay a few thousand for a Ann Arbor grad to fight an OSU grad to the death. Maybe Berkeley, AA, and Harvard could start giving a few classes on how the Unabomber did what he did.

[1] https://www.utexas.edu/about/facts-and-figures

[2] https://www.tamu.edu/about/at-a-glance.html

[3] https://jobs.chronicle.com/jobs/faculty-positions/tenured-te...

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#260
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think he's right, I wonder if that might still be a tradeoff worth making. Or at least, a sane person could argue that it is. Competition between universities for rankings skews a lot of what happens in higher ed. The state of Texas could rationally think "we want to spend our tax dollars subsidizing the education of Texans, but we're not super interested in spending those dollars to fund the academic rat rac…

I struggle to see how this benefits Texas , though. Education is an investment in the future; encouraging the best professors to go elsewhere is like saying you want the future to happen elsewhere. Maybe that's what Texas wants, but universities usually bring startups and high-tech jobs along with them. It kinda reminds me of how Texas wanted to get in on the blockchain hype, so they passed legislation making it extr…

> Education is an investment in the future; encouraging the best professors

The best researchers do not always make the best educators. The best educators do not always make the best researchers.

Being good at research is a nice to have, but a facility like UT Austin should be hyper focused on attracting the country's best educators to help Texas' best students get (or create) the country's best jobs in Texas.

That said, the best educators are likely also attracted by Tenure.

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