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Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

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Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#251

Post by firatsarlar »

hinkley wrote: post #52
kristianc wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odds are this guy is not Bill Gates, and therein lies the problem.

Repeat after me: I am not Bill Gates. I am not Steve Jobs. I am not Wozniak. I am mercifully not Larry Ellison. I do not have [Google,Amazon,Facebook]'s problems. I do not have Google's customer base. I do not have Google's money. I have pretty normal problems, which require pretty normal to slightly extraordinary solutions. Anything these people are willing to discuss in public is an old solution to old problems. Wh…

I'm not a hero, or a prophet to save the world. I'm just a child who - delusion, illusion, assumption, pick a word for me my master - believe "man can change the course of history" Oh sorry master, I sense you said - this is God's work, you are a small, poor individual, do not be a hero -. Accept the truth you say. But master, what if I'm a potential of progress, or a spark of a delusion.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#252

Post by pammf »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #182
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your blood pressure will remain lower). I had a manager who would quietly disagree with things we said, then try to gently steer us toward the an…

Thank you for this comment. I feel that I have been operating in the same mode of your former manager and never considered how this could be as harmful as being too direct.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#253

Post by Demeanor3940 »

While it is the intelligent to recognize that humans are mostly irrational and can't handle truth, and that you will have better results by working around their defensive instincts - it is still people's responsibility to try to think rationally.

The example of the truck sign is a false equivalence. It would be better if the author said the "Careful, dangerous dog" sign or "electric fence" or "radioactive". If you think of humans as equals, you must also recognize that half of the responsibility of communication lies with the listener. You can become an excellent communicator by taking 90% of responsibility, dancing around people's biases and getting around their defense systems. But that shouldn't be expected of you. If you are right, that should be enough if the listener is doing their part of the communication work. If you insist on irrationally touching an electric fence after being warned about it, that is absolutely not the communicator's fault.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#254

Post by ttoinou »

Demeanor3940 wrote: post #253

While it is the intelligent to recognize that humans are mostly irrational and can't handle truth, and that you will have better results by working around their defensive instincts - it is still people's responsibility to try to think rationally. The example of the truck sign is a false equivalence. It would be better if the author said the "Careful, dangerous dog" sign or "electric fence" or "radioactive". If you th…

Thaaank you !

Most of these advice focus on how to achieve results instantly.

What we want is to bring everyone one up in the long term, communication is part of it, part of sharing a common experience and common reasoning. Sometimes I am hyper rational because I hope the other and I are into a complex discussion where we'll both learn for the future.

But one needs to recognize when hyper rationality should be dropped out

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#255

Post by newswasboring »

yarg wrote: post #164
eyelidlessness wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had cared about the consequences, it might have served everyone better (yourself included) if you’d found a constructive way to discuss concerns you’d had for months, so everyone involved would have a better chance of success. It’s possible you’d done that, but it sounds very much like you just left a situation in a far from ideal state until you chose to categorically write off a whole person who may not have…

It was a frustrated outburst regarding something about which I had repeated (and more discretely) commented. And there was no constructive way to address the situation where someone simply is not smart enough to learn their required tasks. Beyond that, just because I can recognise that testing is inadequate, does not mean that I can guide how to do it. (Just because I can point when a builder puts a hammer through th…

> And there was no constructive way to address the situation where someone simply is not smart enough to learn their required tasks.

Of course there is man. Nobody is smart or dumb, they are just curious or incurious. You could have pointed out what was lacking in their knowledge base, pointed to documentation, pointed to inadequacies in the process etc. Just shouting at someone's face that they are good enough was the worst way to tell this truth.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#256

Post by Brian_K_White »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #225
falcolas wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that someone is perfectly rational is not saying they have no emotions. Nor is it an insinuation that someone is somehow less human for prioritizing rationality in decision making. And I say this as an outspoken neurodivergent myself.

And neither is anyone who’s neurodivergent “perfectly rational”. That’s not a helpful stereotype, all on its own, without any characterization of our emotional capacity or supposed prioritization of whatever mode of thought.

What they said was factual enough. What they did not say was anything more than that. They are not guilty of anyone else's (your) embellishments.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#257

Post by Brian_K_White »

freetime2 wrote: post #206
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your blood pressure will remain lower). I had a manager who would quietly disagree with things we said, then try to gently steer us toward the an…

Yup I have seen this technique used by someone who thought they were being tactful, but just came across as being totally patronizing and wasting a large amount of time. Polite directness is best. Explain your position as clearly as possible, your reservations with the alternative, what it would take to change your mind, and actually be open to considering alternatives and changing your mind. That being said, I think…

Exactly. You can both state your reasoning AND ask a question that not only tries to lead someone else to your conclusion, but also allows them to rebut your conclusion with their own better one.

Assuming that that last doesn't exist is just insufferably patronizing asshole.

When I ask "what did I miss?" I'm really asking that.

Sure I know I've put a lot of time and thought into the topic (otherwise I'm not trying to state anything in the first place), and sure I may even be pretty sure I'm the authority in the immediate viscinity, but obviously anyone else from any background at any time on any topic may know something I don't know or have considered something I never considered, and may actually have an answer. In fact it happens all the time.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#258

Post by JackMorgan »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #182
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your blood pressure will remain lower). I had a manager who would quietly disagree with things we said, then try to gently steer us toward the an…

A great description! I've worked with someone who abused the Socratic method, and it was infuriating. Especially considering he wasn't a particularly good technologist, his only claim was that he was the manager.

I'm remembering all the days spent with him asking leading questions, where after the first question it was immediately obvious he wanted us to "realize" a seriously inferior solution. It felt very patronizing, and a huge waste of time as I'd immediately start to explain why his end result couldn't work for some glaring reason, but he'd be certain I somehow misunderstood the problem and keep asking questions. Sometimes he was right, and legitimately guided the team to a better solution, but maybe only 1/3rd of the time. Whew.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#259

Post by callesgg »

samhuk wrote: post #192

> If we have an objective, context-free, helpful truth then why can't it be offered in a way that respects and honors other people? In my view, this is essentially the key sentence that the entire blog post builds up to and revolves around. Honestly, I am fearful of this ideology. What I see, is an author who spends a very long time and many words to explain how, sometimes, truths are "too offensive" or "inconvenient…

Yeah I agree. My take on it is boils down to the following: Truth cant be context free.

Truth, is only valid within the model that it is defined in. True means something like, one thing being in accordance with some other thing according to some model. Example: 1=1 is true according to the rules of math.

There is always a context/model that describes what it means for something to be true, even if you can't see it. If two people seam to be disagreeing about something being true they are just miscommunicating and they are evaluating the things they think they are talking about in different ways.

With this as a background the original header of the article

> Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth?...

Is nonsense, it is a weak way of blaming once own insufficient communication skills on the receiver.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#260

Post by xtiansimon »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #182
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your blood pressure will remain lower). I had a manager who would quietly disagree with things we said, then try to gently steer us toward the an…

“ We lost so much time because he thought he was being clever by not telling us when he disagreed with us.”

Are these insights from a confession or somehow related by a confidant? Otherwise, isn’t this conclusion just speculation?

Lack of leadership is frustrating. Indecisiveness wastes time. That said, the job and style of the manager invite different styles of management.

My current boss is very opinionated and direct. And this makes sense for a sole-proprietor who has to make decisive choices and decisions. Also, in accounting consulting (the domain) clear leadership is very productive, which is tied to our business model. Of course you can argue and swing opinion, and soon find more responsibility to your plate. Haha

I’ve lead projects where I was the programmer and others were closer to the content and context. I worked to gently guide them to look for the patterns of their content, so i could determine if there were higher orders of complexity—which I was struggling to understand how to solve.

The picture I’m working to paint is that over my career I’ve seen different models and used some in low stakes business—not rocket science or healthcare. YMMV

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