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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#251

Post by gbrindisi »

_vbnz wrote: post #33
hunglee2 wrote: post #14

I think we (Americans and Europeans alike) wholly underestimate how Americanised European culture is becoming. This is an observation rather than a criticism as I don't know whether this is 'good' or 'bad' but it is noticeable phenomena manifest through language, and probably an unintended consequence of the dependency of Europe on US communication technology, leading to the import of US communication styles, politic…

Yeah, it was shocking here in Stockholm when there were BLM protests in 2020. It's like people are more involved in US politics than their national politics.

Sweden is such a weird experience.

On one hand there seems to be a strong sentiment of what swedish culture is and is not, on the other there is also an unusual higher permeability to american culture compared to other EU countries.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#252

Post by throw_a_grenade »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #149
ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

I don't think its necessarily about the culture itself here, its merely a cheap populist tactic to rabble-rouse among a nation that has a rich history and struggles to handle the fact that its present isn't at that zenith. France do a lot of this sort of thing too. I would argue that belittling cultural preservation demonstrates deep Anglo-centric bias. While its fine for lulz, I worry that you're being sincere. Try…

> Try asking _anyone_ who doesn't have English as their first language in a serious context how they feel about their language and you'll struggle to find someone without a genuine fondness for it.

Well. My first language is Polish, and there are some of us who call it "superpowers". If you go to a conference, you can be quite sure no-one understands you apart from your friend who you are talking to, and possibly that one passer by, who is also Polish or Ukrainian.

That is, unless we start to curse. Then we are probably well understood.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#253

Post by nyagaga »

antirez wrote: post #180

Please, don't think Italians are like that. It's just this stupid government. For instance in Italian, unlike Spanish, French, ..., there are no italianized words for all the computer science words, we just use English. In general there is not a big sentiment of culture self-defence. But this government is trying to do things that will appeal the dumb people voting for it.

More of them who were against this presumed sentiment of culture self defence, as you claim that in general there is no such thing (i.e. the majority of Italians don't care about it), should have voted the side they truly wanted, or should have gone and cast their vote instead of abstaining. But you may equally assume that they expressed their opinion in doing what they did well knowing what the outcome would be.

As far as preferring the use of local words - or made up words based on the current language - it's something you find in many other countries/languages other than the ones you mention. Or tell you more, some of their languages did not change for centuries thanks to or because of their prolific written tradition. Everything proves that English doesn't have to be present within every language.

I agree they could have just made a silent transition without making a bill and imposing fines, but in the end the decision doesn't sound very controversial to me.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#254

Post by pmontra »

thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #57
lultimouomo wrote: post #28

The current Italian government has introduced the "ministry of industry and made in Italy". That's what's it called, made in Italy , in English in the official name. I guess they're going to fine themselves.

"Fatto in Italia" would be just as good, but might not be as widely understood by non-Italian speakers.

It would feel weird to Italians too. Made in Italy is a sentence that has a long history and is widely used. Fatto in Italia would be laughed at. Then, if it becomes a law, it will be fatto in Italia. I bet against it.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#255

Post by gbrindisi »

chimeracoder wrote: post #188
nivenkos wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Sweden, but I think Europe is much less race-oriented (although classism is still a massive issue). Like in the UK the Prime Minister, Home Secretary, and Scottish First Minister are all from immigrant family backgrounds. As for the refugees, it's not so much racism as just a very difficult situation - a nation can't accept literally millions of young men with no language skills or qualifications and expect…

> I live in Sweden, but I think Europe is much less race-oriented (although classism is still a massive issue). Europe is not less racist than the US. However, Europeans are much less used to reflecting on and taking about racism in their own countries than Americans are. That reluctance to talk about race is exacerbated by the fact that, in many European counties (Sweden being one of them), it is either difficult or…

While this might be true to some extent, a huge difference between the US and Europe is that in the EU the concept of identity revolves more around nationality than ethnicity/race.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#256

Post by thinkingemote »

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

Developing countries with their own culture also desire protection. Is it the law of the fittest or are some things actually sacred and worth preserving?

Some might say only non western or ex colonised countries should get protection and the ex colonisers culture should be left to rot (i.e. to be swallowed up by Disney). I think that's the neo liberal / left view. It's a bit biased in my opinion but it's certainly a common thing I've heard.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#257

Post by hackerlight »

hunglee2 wrote: post #14

I think we (Americans and Europeans alike) wholly underestimate how Americanised European culture is becoming. This is an observation rather than a criticism as I don't know whether this is 'good' or 'bad' but it is noticeable phenomena manifest through language, and probably an unintended consequence of the dependency of Europe on US communication technology, leading to the import of US communication styles, politic…

It's been happening in Russia for decades, too. The status symbols among the upper leadership of the Soviet Union during the Cold War were all products of Western capitalism. For example, luxury cars. That continues today, and Putin, due to being a Russian nationalist, is actively fighting against it (even though he himself wears luxury Western clothing). You could even argue it was one of his motivations for invading Ukraine. He saw the decreasing influence of Russian culture inside Ukraine, and he responded with force.

The only way to effectively fight this homogenisation is to use authoritarian measures that force people into compliance. And that's when you are bordering on literal fascism, using force on your own people to ensure conformity to cultural and national norms. Cultural homogenisation is a natural process that will happen when you integrate people with trade, the internet, transport, and communications. You can't fight these processes without significant and unreasonable amounts of force applied to people.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#258

Post by 13415 »

juancn wrote: post #230

Languages evolve, they're living things. Isolation creates new languages, that why Europe has a gazillion of them, people of different valleys developed different languages, on the other hand communication mixes them and blends them, for example after wars and invasions, immigration waves, tourism, or even introduction of technology such as TV or the internet. It's a pointless exercise to try to preserve the status-q…

Back to Latin for everyone in Italy, I say. Anyone who refuses to write public documents in Latin in the style of Ovid (43 B.C.- 17 A.D.) will pay a hefty fine.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#259

Post by avgcorrection »

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

> I don't mean music and films, but rather the way of thinking about the world.

For example?

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#260

Post by notorandit »

As an Italian i really feel the shame. There is no such a thing as "pure language". We have words from a number of languages, from Sumerian, Hebrew, Greek, Arabic and also from French, German. And from English. So what?

I really hope that law won't pass the parliament scrutiny!

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