More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships • Hacker News Board

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#251

Post by Forgeties79 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:48 PM UTC

ragtete wrote: post #213

Ekaros wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why connect it to education? Why not make it general program for all ages? Why not encourage community run programs for teams consisting for example company workers, or local neighbourhood teams? The education ends very quickly and it is the older than that people who could really benefit from these activities.

I don't know why folks put down college sports. If you do 4 years on a D1 team, you can certainly call yourself an expert in that sport. They're not just messing around, they're learning and developing their skills. They may not go pro or use that knowledge directly later in life, but neither do a lot of degree holders in their field.

> They're not just messing around, they're learning and developing their skills.

Yes, but almost universally at the expense of the education they are allegedly there to get. Especially D1 programs. That is why many of us don’t think it makes sense to tie it to education. To play at the level they are required to, they have to sacrifice their education. I think we all know how there are “football player classes” and curriculums designed to minimize school/education time and maximize their time for football.

Hell how many times have we seen scandals involving completely fake courses for athletes? UNC got in trouble for this in 2015 or so after decades of doing it. They were hardly the first and we all know it hasn’t stopped.

They can’t have both unless they lower the quality of the education received (which is pretty silly, considering they are at institution primarily designed around education) or lower the standards of competition for sports, which is never going to happen as long as one team wants a competitive advantage.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#252

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:50 PM UTC

happytesd8889 wrote: post #249

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I had my best critical thinking class in community college. If I was innately smart, I probably would not have needed it as badly, but that one class gave me a lot of foundation and some credence to 'education' being useful. In other words, I am not smart, but I am educated. Overall, I think society benefits from that. But that was 2 year community college after which I transferred ( and later got an MBA ).

People always use this term "critical thinking" on the internet and I am not sure anybody that uses it has a good definition of what it means or why it is something that can or must be taught in a college kind of environment. At least personally, it's concerning to find out how many people think they are thinking critically all the time, but are not able to think critically about the definition of critical thinking.…

Hmm. I mean an actual class in critical thinking. It consisted of several things, but mostly things like basic logic, fallacies and so on.

In other words, neither of three options listed.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#253

Post by mtrower » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:50 PM UTC

waboremo wrote: post #128

azinman2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDs require more school on top of college; their major is often unrelated except they have to take pre-med classes. Often times people will go back to a community college or some other schooling option for those classes if they decide they want to go down that route. So you absolutely can be any of those majors and change your position later. Far better than say a communications major, which with psychology are the t…

Those that can self-educate effectively are also ones that would thrive in a proper high education system. Unfortunately, we're turning them away for various reasons (financial, lack of flexibility, etc) and filling rooms full of people who are there just because they were told to be there. It's quite horrendous, people in their 3+ years and they're still just going through the motions for the paper. If you're not th…

> Those that can self-educate effectively are also ones that would thrive in a proper high education system.

That might depend on what you define as 'proper'. These environments are typically tailored toward a certain median individual and if you don't fit that median (above or below), you aren't going to have a good time. In my own experience, I can generally self-educate far better than what I've found in any traditional educational environment available* to me. I just can't deal with the snail's pace of concept introduction, the shallowness of concept exploration, etc. Everything moves so slow and I just tune it out.

* What I've seen of MIT's open courseware appeared interesting and well-paced to me, but that's not a route that was ever available to me.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#254

Post by harvey9 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:51 PM UTC

rr808 wrote: post #201

alsaaro wrote: post #88

As someone who has worked two of the most intensive blue collar jobs, people should be wary of romanticizing blue collar work. Blue collar workers are expected to really work at their jobs. White collar workers can chill if there is no work to be done, or be sent home early with pay, or take a relaxation day and just browse the internet and listen to podcasts. They have perks, you see white collar workers leaving wor…

Its going to be fascinating how the preference for WFH affects the job market. I'd imagine on-location jobs to get paid more as supply dries up and everyone wants to work from home. Teachers/nurses/chefs were underpaid before, little wonder there is a shortage now, I expect they need much higher wages.

If you're in the nurse or chef employment market then I don't think you'll be affected by the WFH trend in white collar work. We already have a shortage of nurses and pay is stagnant.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#255

Post by mtrower » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:51 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #208

mfer wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> society is much better off when more of the public is educated. To what extent of educated? What do you mean by educated? A lot of what the general public gets isn't deep thought. It's being told what to think. A lot of the what to think is ideas based on assumptions and beliefs. Are people better off for learning them? For those who want to think deeply, are modern colleges a place that allow for that? I know PhDs…

> A lot of what the general public gets isn't deep thought. It's being told what to think. A lot of the what to think is ideas based on assumptions and beliefs. Are people better off for learning them? Yes because what it would be replaced with is even worse and likely instantly falls apart under a modicum of critical thinking.

That's just indoctrination. Great I guess if you agree with the brainwashing. Not so great if you're on the other side.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#256

Post by stainablesteel » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:52 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #40

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

> It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good.

oh are we talking about youtube? i love youtube

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#257

Post by dahart » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:52 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #80

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

> this completely cripples them in the future when they could otherwise have had great careers > It's good that students are turning away now Conspiracy theory: the powers that be, are not dumb, they know this, and rely in this to increase their stability by eliminating the competition and the ambitious. Scared people make bad decisions; their replacement for neutering-via-college is not likely to be as easy to deal…

This seems really funny to me. There’s been a huge push by elites and right-leaning politicians in particular to downplay college education and to trot out blue-collar workers, to convince people not to go to college. Joe the Plumber, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_Plumber

Conservatives and businesses want more people to take low-paying jobs, and having the masses be educated threatens their ability to pay minimum wage. The St. Louis Fed published statistics [1] demonstrating that people with 4-year degrees earn an average of twice what people who don’t go to college earn. That is a truly massive discrepancy, and completely surprised me when I read it. I would have assumed that degrees were maybe a 10% or 15% advantage statistically. That it’s double is astounding, and it really very much undermines the notion that somehow people are getting tricked into going to college.

[1] https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/revie...

(Note the title argues that college isn’t worth it. Read the statistics, they tell a completely different story. The headline is based on the idea that total savings at retirement came down somewhat for college educated people, and it completely neglects the fact that these savings are 2x larger than non-degree holders, and come after a lifetime of 2x higher salary.)

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#258

Post by mtrower » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:53 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #66

mfer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I wouldn’t dismiss its value in being taught how to think. Few universities teach how to think. Most teach what to think. Critical thinking, reasoning through ideas and concepts, and research are often lacking. > I wish there was a bigger focus in physics, math, and philosophy for those who didn’t know what to do I don't buy that. You can't by a psychiatrist. You can't be a medical doctor or nutritionist. There…

MDs require more school on top of college; their major is often unrelated except they have to take pre-med classes. Often times people will go back to a community college or some other schooling option for those classes if they decide they want to go down that route. So you absolutely can be any of those majors and change your position later. Far better than say a communications major, which with psychology are the t…

> a dedicated professional walking you through a curriculum in a context where you’re dedicating 4 years to the endeavor.

Sounds nice. What I've actually seen is dedicated professionals walking entire classes en masse through curriculum --- a very different situation.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#259

Post by pcurve » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:54 PM UTC

There's a large caveat towards the end of the article:

“People get more specific skills in apprenticeship programs than they do in college and while that helps them enter the labor market with greater ease at the beginning of their careers, later in life their skills depreciate”

“So at age 45 or 50 or 55, these people are less likely to stay in the labor market because their skills are less valuable.”

By contrast, a college degree offers a broader, general education, which “makes people more adaptable and able to learn new skills that show up later when the economy changes,” he said.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#260

Post by neilv » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 7:55 PM UTC

I'm wondering how many parents are reading this in the WSJ, and thinking something like: "That's great that those people are looking at paths other than college. Of course, my kids are going to college, for the college lifestyle experience, the networking, the pedigree, and the opportunities that will open up to them, in their rightful class."