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International Security and Estonia 2023

raport.valisluureamet.ee

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Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#251

Post by Kukumber »

Thaxll wrote: post #231
Kukumber wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except we don't force countries to enter commonwealth, They don't force anyone > Putin is scared of old soviet union nations joining Europe I don't think Russia is scared They are worried Europe became an american military base with long range weaponry https://www.thesoldiersproject.org/how-many-us-military-base... > They're free to do so. Nobody said the opposite

> They don't force anyone So why did they invade Ukraine then?

For the same reasons the US invaded Iraq i guess, for their security as well as the security of the people in the Donbas since conflict sparked with the CIA led coup

There is bad in both sides

https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia...

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/attacks-schools-quadru...

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#252

Post by enjoy-your-stay »

somethingreen wrote: post #174
dmpk2k wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong, because that is true too, but it is NATO that scares Russia. Given Russia's long history of bloody invasions, I don't think this is something Americans can at all relate to. The American Civil War is small potatoes compared to some of the things that Russians (and other continental countries) have been through. It makes for a very paranoid country.

The amount of effort you people put into not hearing what russians have on multiple occasions in plainest of words claimed to be the goal of the war is honestly mind boggling.

Was it denazification, demilitarization, or de-satanization? I've lost track of the many stated goals. Or was it to help those poor souls in the DPR shoot down more civilian jets? Can't quite remember. Or was it to protect German speakers in the Sudetenland?

And anyway, it's not a war. It's a Special Military Operation. How more plain can you get?

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#253

Post by somenameforme »

ceejayoz wrote: post #245
somenameforme wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely a factor, though I'd also add across all ethnicities. Remember we're looking back with hindsight. Imagine you're an ethnic Russian in Crimea in 2014. "Your" president has just been overthrown, there's been intermittent ethnic conflict rising, and now your territory just declared their independence. Your future is not looking peaceful, to say the least. We can look at past populations though. [1] Eth…

Now do ethnic Tatars, and account for the influx of Russian immigrants, and the numbers get quite a bit shakier. I'm skeptical of any referendum of a large group of people that gets a 96.77% result. Mr. Rogers wouldn't poll that high.

From the article: "The U.S. made a big deal about the rights of ethnic minorities there known as the Tatars, which account for around 10% of the population. Of the 4% total that said they did not endorse Russia's annexation..."

It's unclear whether they're saying 96% of Tatar's supported Russia, or "only" 60%. I'd assume the latter for balance, but the writing sure does suggest the former. In either case it's the same story. The reason for the absurdly high poll numbers overall is that ethnic Ukrainians boycotted the referendum.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#254

Post by ethbr0 »

01ce8c91872dd6d wrote: post #239
ethbr0 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your thoughts on how democracy, despite being the least effective approach to extracting resources and suppressing dissent, was pushed on them by the US? Afghanistan wouldn't be under Taliban control today, if the US had installed a dictator and given them a free hand.

I think it worked out pretty well to enrich a handful of corporations and individuals at the expense of American taxpayers and brown lives.

That could have been done easily and better with an autocracy.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#255

Post by Sammi »

blub wrote: post #158
qaq wrote: post #80

I wonder why Russia gets a pass from the left and right on being pretty brutal colonial empire. Even in present day borders Russia is composed of literally hundreds of colonised nations that get exploited and brutalised for the benefit of Moscow.

Can you point to at least one historical analysis which identifies Russia as a colonial empire? Seeing people draw this parallel was surprising to me, as I associate colonialism with the European conquerors of the world: Portugal, Spain, France, Great Britain, The Netherlands and Germany. Indeed I’ve gotten this list from a GEO Magazine special issue dedicated to colonialism, showing on a map where each of those coun…

The colonial Russian Empire is extremely well documented on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_Russi...

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#256

Post by ceejayoz »

somenameforme wrote: post #253
ceejayoz wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now do ethnic Tatars, and account for the influx of Russian immigrants, and the numbers get quite a bit shakier. I'm skeptical of any referendum of a large group of people that gets a 96.77% result. Mr. Rogers wouldn't poll that high.

From the article: "The U.S. made a big deal about the rights of ethnic minorities there known as the Tatars, which account for around 10% of the population. Of the 4% total that said they did not endorse Russia's annexation..." It's unclear whether they're saying 96% of Tatar's supported Russia, or "only" 60%. I'd assume the latter for balance, but the writing sure does suggest the former. In either case it's the sam…

Same problem, looks like; they polled Tatars who didn't leave.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#257

Post by consumer451 »

pfdietz wrote: post #225
consumer451 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you equating the control that the USA exerts over countries like Holland, Germany, and France with the control that The Kremlin exerted over countries like Poland, Lithuania, and Georgia?

No, I'm equating the subjugation of low population density areas of Siberia and such with the conquest of North America from its native peoples.

OK, I totally misread that. In that case, that was a while ago. I mean does Belgium turn a blind eye towards Russian massacres in Ukraine because of their history in Congo?

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#258

Post by joshuaissac »

varjag wrote: post #167
joshuaissac wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About a third of the ethnic Russians in Estonia do not have Russian nationality, so they are effectively stateless.

The alien passport gives you mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia (without having to live in Russia). For its owners it's a decent value.

> mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia

Only to visit for up to 90 days, not to actually reside in either place. So it would be more like a stateless European getting an ESTA, which is hardly a replacement for actual citizenship in their home country.

> For its owners it's a decent value

An actual Estonian passport lets its owners work in the EU and gives them mobility across 181 countries; a Russian passport gives them access to 119. Estonian non-citizens can visit 46. Not that visa-free access to another country is the point of citizenship.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#259

Post by varjag »

joshuaissac wrote: post #258
varjag wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alien passport gives you mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia (without having to live in Russia). For its owners it's a decent value.

> mobility across Schengen area and free access to Russia Only to visit for up to 90 days, not to actually reside in either place. So it would be more like a stateless European getting an ESTA, which is hardly a replacement for actual citizenship in their home country. > For its owners it's a decent value An actual Estonian passport lets its owners work in the EU and gives them mobility across 181 countries; a Russia…

> Only to visit for up to 90 days, not to actually reside in either place.

Visa free does not generally mean residence permit included. Still a pretty reasonable deal for someone who is not a citizen in Schengen.

> a Russian passport gives them access to 119

A Russian passport requires visa application to any of Schengen states. The queues for filing I believe are into months now.

> Not that visa-free access to another country is the point of citizenship.

Indeed, and people who can't be arsed to naturalize clearly don't see it either.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#260

Post by girvo »

enjoy-your-stay wrote: post #252
somethingreen wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of effort you people put into not hearing what russians have on multiple occasions in plainest of words claimed to be the goal of the war is honestly mind boggling.

Was it denazification, demilitarization, or de-satanization? I've lost track of the many stated goals. Or was it to help those poor souls in the DPR shoot down more civilian jets? Can't quite remember. Or was it to protect German speakers in the Sudetenland? And anyway, it's not a war. It's a Special Military Operation. How more plain can you get?

I think it was something to do with pigeons and bioweapons?

/s

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