All programming philosophies are about state • Hacker News Board

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#251

Post by seanhunter » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 5:53 AM UTC

irrational wrote: post #130

kazinator wrote: post #73

Imperative: modifying state is the point of a bit-flipping machine; get out of my way so I can have fun! OOP: OK, I mostly had enough fun, can we try to tame the bit-flipping chaos with real-world analogies, without deflating all the fun? Functional: Any Monad is by definition an Endofunctor, which also means it's an object in the category of Endofunctors, where the monadic μ(flatMap) and η(unit) operators satisfy th…

Isn’t OOP a subset of imperative programming and functional a subset of declarative programming?

Not really. For example ocaml allows oop in a functional programming language.

OOP is about encapsulation of data and algorithms which deal with that data in logical units (objects) and allowing certain operations eg inheritance, polymorphism (sometimes) etc over those objects. It can be declarative or imperative.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#252

Post by hinkley » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #231

kazinator wrote: post #73

Imperative: modifying state is the point of a bit-flipping machine; get out of my way so I can have fun! OOP: OK, I mostly had enough fun, can we try to tame the bit-flipping chaos with real-world analogies, without deflating all the fun? Functional: Any Monad is by definition an Endofunctor, which also means it's an object in the category of Endofunctors, where the monadic μ(flatMap) and η(unit) operators satisfy th…

I wish people would quit propagating this hostile view of functional programmers. The vast majority of them — even in academia — are happy to never mention or even fully learn about the scary math words, and most of those who _do_ learn about them work really hard to not make the community unwelcoming to those who don't know or don't want to know. But the reputation precedes, which causes people to avoid it altogethe…

It would help if functional didn’t collect all the people with their heads all the way up their own asses. Functional has more shibboleths than anybody except maybe professional consulting groups like IBM GS.

You can’t have exclusive language and then be surprised when nobody wants to worship at the altar of your obfuscation.

ETA: Look. I was reading 25 year old complaints about why Lisp isn’t popular 25 years ago. You can go on scratching your heads for another 25 years or you can start taking criticism instead of deflecting.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#253

Post by vinodkd » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

diatone wrote: post #224

vinodkd wrote: post #169

Funny, I arrived at this "all software is.." piece last week. Hypothesis: All of software *is* about change management ---- It dawned on me that all the software design efforts - Design patterns, programming styles, management practices - are all geared towards one thing at its core - managing change. For example: * Command pattern: Figure out all the things that can be called and instead of a giant if/switch, look t…

If you haven’t already, you might benefit from learning about the idea of OODA loops.

Thanks. Also, nice blog post about MMM. Good analogy to finance.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#254

Post by DonaldPShimoda » Thu, Feb 09, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #252

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would quit propagating this hostile view of functional programmers. The vast majority of them — even in academia — are happy to never mention or even fully learn about the scary math words, and most of those who _do_ learn about them work really hard to not make the community unwelcoming to those who don't know or don't want to know. But the reputation precedes, which causes people to avoid it altogethe…

It would help if functional didn’t collect all the people with their heads all the way up their own asses. Functional has more shibboleths than anybody except maybe professional consulting groups like IBM GS. You can’t have exclusive language and then be surprised when nobody wants to worship at the altar of your obfuscation. ETA: Look. I was reading 25 year old complaints about why Lisp isn’t popular 25 years ago. Y…

> ETA: Look. I was reading 25 year old complaints about why Lisp isn’t popular 25 years ago. You can go on scratching your heads for another 25 years or you can start taking criticism instead of deflecting.

Is this... directed at me? Are you saying that I've been guilty of this behavior? Could you point me to an example? Because I put a lot of effort into helping the functional programming community be more welcoming, so it'd be important to me to know if I've gone astray somewhere.

> It would help if functional didn’t collect all the people with their heads all the way up their own asses.

I don't disagree that the kind of people who like to be particularly condescending tend to also end up in this community.

That said, I will point out: (a) there are still plenty of assholes in non-functional (or even anti-functional) communities, and (b) the community has grown a lot over the years, and has mostly shifted to being much more positive and inclusive. Unfortunately, the reputation from decades ago is still strong, and I honestly believe part of that is due to historically-justified propagation from people like you in this comment and the other person in the comment to which I originally replied, to name two examples. There's a lot of residual hostility against the FP community that I don't think is truthfully justifiable anymore.