Live data from Hacker News

The world of pipe fittings

naich.net

251–260 of 270 posts

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like PEX, but I know opinions vary What’s not to like about PEX?

Thinking about a system a half-step up from hose clamps holding 100psi of pressure, which if it pulls apart will rapidly release hundreds of gallons of water does not inspire confidence. And since the house is already plumbed with copper and I know how to sweat joints, I might as well continue that. I'm about to use PEX for the first time on my hydronic heating system, which is only ~20psi and limited volume (autofil…

There is few type of PEX fitting systems. I agree the hose clamp style doesn't inspire confidence at all.

I have replaced almost all piping in my house. I used PEX-B with the fittings secured by copper rings that you crimp with the appropriate tool. It is so easy to use and confirm the joint with a gauge tool.

I had to solder copper where I couldn't replace it all. Every copper joint was it's own little project. While for PEX it's quick and easy.

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am glad to be using metric. 150mm and 30cm rulers don't seems to run as fast as theirs us customary unit counterparts ;)

Mine are mainly metric or dual Imperial/metric too. I usually convert to Imperial because most readers are in the US. If you were to read some of my old HN comments you'll realize defending the metric system in a US environment is pretty much a waste of time. I recall one debate where some US commentators didn't have a clue about what a comfortable room temperature in Celsius would be. 68F=20C was meaningless to them…

I was primarily making a joke. But it is indeed a big pet peeve of mine.

I do find it annoying that one country in the world likes to use it's own unit. And that of course they are not as nice to use as the units optimized for science. It is annoying for international communication.

But my real issue is that Americans seemingly lie to themselves by pretending everything can be rounded off to the nearest approximation of US customary units without consequences. And so anything you buy in the USA; unless maybe when manufactured with US customary units; is not the advertised size. Worse yet, this habit of rounding off is also applied to US customary units in many case. Because nothing is ever the advertised dimensions, or the tolerances are just laughably large. Nothing ever fits. That is what I am fighting.

Ask for a 48" long piece of lumber in the USA, you get something +- 1/4" at best (+- 6.35mm). Go to my home country asking for 1.2m will get you something +- 0.5mm. It's cultural.

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#253
post #218
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the tape don’t seal. No, the tape absolutely contributes to the seal. Sure, the lubrication lets you thread more tightly without binding, but that's not to say the tape isn't contributing to the seal. If it didn't, you would still have a spiral leakage path. PTFE tape is soft enough that it deforms and prevents the spiral leakage path which can occur with any tapered threaded joint. I've actually used PTFE tape in…

The tape is so incredibly soft, it isn’t doing much on that front. You also don’t actually have a spiral leakage pattern with NPT if tightened appropriately- the fitting it self deforms to seal it. You need the tape or some other dope so the metal doesn’t gall when you do it. If you aren’t tightening it that tight, then yeah you’ll need rope or whatever. If you pull apart the fitting afterwards, it’ll be really clear…

> You also don’t actually have a spiral leakage pattern with NPT if tightened appropriately- the fitting it self deforms to seal it.

This contradicts every source I've read about NPT threads, e.g.

"NPT pipe thread design allows slight clearance between the thread crests and mating roots. This clearance creates a spiral leak path along the male thread crests. The spiral leak path is why NPT connections require a thread sealant to be leakproof."

https://www.industrialspec.com/about-us/blog/detail/npt-nptf...

"NPT, or National Pipe Thread (Taper) is an American standard for pipe connection dating back to the middle of the 1800s [...] they require a thread sealant, such as PTFE tape, to fill the spiral leak path inherent to the fitting;"

https://www.fluidpowerworld.com/why-is-leakage-still-a-probl...

Thoughts?

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sinks are one of the few areas that I don't think one can get out of using threaded connections on the supply lines (haven't seen push-to-connect for that last leg yet). A lot of them use NPT threads, and NPT is very easy to put together in a way that will have a slow leak. Even a single drop every few minutes can cause big problems if left unattended for long enough. Also, a lot of the connections are in locations t…

The sink supply connections (usually from a shutoff valve) are compression threads (a parallel/straight thread). If the valve itself is threaded on, that inlet might be NPT (or might be compression), but the valve outlet will be compression, which uses a tapered ferrule to provide the seal and straight threads.

> The sink supply connections (usually from a shutoff valve) are compression threads

I've seen both compression and NPT. I only have three faucet-replacement data points to work from, but I haven't developed a feeling for why manufacturers will choose NPT in some cases.

Compression fittings are pretty straightforward, IMO. No complaints from me about those.

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a funny experience a week ago. One night working on a hobby web project it took me three or four hours to debug something, I finally got to bed around midnight thinking "boy, programming is hard". The next day at work we had to find a broken heat wire in a tiled bathroom floor, running 1000 volts through the wires to try to fuse the broken wire, then heating the floor up and searching with heat-sensitive paper…

I once had to jackhammer a 4 foot wide, 26 foot long, 4 foot deep trench in my basement to replace the sanitary sewer in my house. It was old terracotta pipe and had tree roots growing into it and eventually blocked the flow. It was doing that that helped me be so thankful to have an office job. I also had to lug all the rubble upstairs in 5 gallon buckets.

Didn't you have to bring the rubble back down when it was time to refill the trench? That would've bothered me more than the trips upstairs.

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#256

This article sucks. Lots of bad info from an inexperienced plumber. How the US military, nuclear power plants, and plumbers worth their weight in salt do fittings: 3-4 times around the (male) fitting with PTFE tape, then a light amount of pipe dope on top of the PTFE tape. Also, DO NOT buy the cheap PTFE tape as suggest. Buy the milspec tape. Your big box store will have both and you'll know where that money (a coupl…

Milspec, lol. Doesn't that normally equal as cheap as they can get away with? There is a high-density thread sealing PTFE tape that works a bit better than the el' cheapo generic white stuff (although it's usually white too). Anything marked as such should be sufficient unless you are working on an oil rig or nuclear reactor. EDIT: Unless the package has MIL-T-27730 on the tape, labeling it milspec has no meaning.

>Milspec, lol.

Yes, MilSpec [0].

>Doesn't that normally equal as cheap as they can get away with?

No, wrong. You're thinking of "military grade", which is effectively meaningless as a term.

>There is a high-density thread sealing PTFE tape that works a bit better than the el' cheapo generic white stuff

This is what I was alluding to. It's thicker and denser.

>EDIT: Unless the package has MIL-T-27730 on the tape, labeling it milspec has no meaning.

This is where you're wrong. Milspec has a specific meaning [0]. The milspec in question is Military Spec # A-A-58092 [1].

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Stand...

[1] https://www.lowes.com/pd/Oatey-0-6-in-x-43-ft-Plumber-s-Tape...

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#257
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tape is so incredibly soft, it isn’t doing much on that front. You also don’t actually have a spiral leakage pattern with NPT if tightened appropriately- the fitting it self deforms to seal it. You need the tape or some other dope so the metal doesn’t gall when you do it. If you aren’t tightening it that tight, then yeah you’ll need rope or whatever. If you pull apart the fitting afterwards, it’ll be really clear…

> You also don’t actually have a spiral leakage pattern with NPT if tightened appropriately- the fitting it self deforms to seal it. This contradicts every source I've read about NPT threads, e.g. "NPT pipe thread design allows slight clearance between the thread crests and mating roots. This clearance creates a spiral leak path along the male thread crests. The spiral leak path is why NPT connections require a threa…

Check out:

[https://www.ralstoninst.com/npt-female-quick-test-adapters]

“They seal due to the "out of roundness principle" which means that the male stretches the female fitting until there is so much force that the connection can hold pressure. One of the challenges with this design is that if you connect stainless steel to stainless steel then over-tightening or poor lubrication can cause gauling and damage to the threads. Thread sealant is needed to seal but only 2 turns of thread sealant is required. ”

And [https://brennaninc.com/brennan-university-old/fittings-101-n...]

“ NPT connections rely on thread deformation- a metal to metal sealing design where the threads of the connectors themselves form together. This design is ideal for single assembly applications and not recommended where connections will be assembled and disassembled frequently due to wear on the threads from deformation.”

I think you’re running across SEO spam. The bane of the internet. However, it is really commonly misunderstood, and I’ve heard all sorts of folks repeat it.

The thread sealant is to lubricate, and can help slightly in low pressure scenarios (like typical gas which is about 1/2PSI or 10-12 WC inches), but it’s to allow the fitting to work, not the primary sealing mechanism.

It’s not hard to do some back of the envelope calculations either and see that has to be true in many situations because the yield strength of PTFE tape or thread sealant (even when cured) is so low. It can’t hold on 100 PSI if it was what was doing the sealing.

Brass, Iron, Stainless? Piece of cake.

That said, there are thread sealants that do indeed provide high strength gas tight seals, loctite makes one for sure.

But it shouldn’t be necessary and isn’t generally in the plumbing aisle.

You can test out the lubrication effect yourself. It’s really obvious in brass, black iron, galvanized, and stainless fittings.

The standard ‘torque guidance’ for NPT fittings, is tighten to hand-tight, then do 2-3 turns.

Try it first without anything (with fittings you won’t mind losing), and the galling and friction is terrible. Often it’s impossible to do 2-3 turns, and hence it will leak. All the force is taken up with the friction on the threads. It may be impossible to undo due to the galling/cold welding.

Lubricating Oil on the threads? No issues, and you can tighten with no leaks unless the fitting is damaged or messed up.

Use tape or pipe dope? Usually even better than the lubricating oil, and minor damage won’t cause nuisance leaks which may require too much force otherwise.

Thin brass fittings and stainless steel are especially bad without some kind of lubricant. The brass even makes a shrieking sound, and is susceptible to cracking.

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had to jackhammer a 4 foot wide, 26 foot long, 4 foot deep trench in my basement to replace the sanitary sewer in my house. It was old terracotta pipe and had tree roots growing into it and eventually blocked the flow. It was doing that that helped me be so thankful to have an office job. I also had to lug all the rubble upstairs in 5 gallon buckets.

Didn't you have to bring the rubble back down when it was time to refill the trench? That would've bothered me more than the trips upstairs.

I didn't. It's not good practice to fill in the trench with rubble (rubble is the big chunks of concrete with re-bar still in it, not the dirt). I left the dirt down there, along with any smaller chunks of concrete, anything smaller than a golf ball or so. Good practice states that you should fill the trench directly around the pipe with gravel which i brought down fresh, compact that and then fill dirt on top of that, which I had left down there, and then finally with newly poured concrete and re-bar. Filling in the trench with the rubble would potentially damage the new pipe I just put in. It actually wasn't bad bringing in the new gravel and sacks of concrete because gravity does the work for you. We just opened one of the windows and put two 2x4 boards to make a ramp and slid the bags down that. Just had to carry it from the truck to the window.

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK gas work is regulated so only a registered plumber can do it.

You're not supposed to exceed the speed limit either...

I should say I spent 10 years in the building trade and I saw all kinds of things, but I never saw an unregistered plumber fiddle with gas.

Unlike the speed limit, this rule is pretty well respected.

Re: The world of pipe fittings

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Milspec, lol. Doesn't that normally equal as cheap as they can get away with? There is a high-density thread sealing PTFE tape that works a bit better than the el' cheapo generic white stuff (although it's usually white too). Anything marked as such should be sufficient unless you are working on an oil rig or nuclear reactor. EDIT: Unless the package has MIL-T-27730 on the tape, labeling it milspec has no meaning.

>Milspec, lol. Yes, MilSpec [0]. >Doesn't that normally equal as cheap as they can get away with? No, wrong. You're thinking of "military grade", which is effectively meaningless as a term. >There is a high-density thread sealing PTFE tape that works a bit better than the el' cheapo generic white stuff This is what I was alluding to. It's thicker and denser. >EDIT: Unless the package has MIL-T-27730 on the tape, labe…

Nuclear grade [1] or GTFO!

[1] https://www.grainger.com/product/3M-Duct-Tape-Nuclear-Grade-...

Post reply on HN