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Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

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Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#251

A fun idea that I'm certain no one has considered with any level of seriousness: don't moderate anything. Build the features to allow readers to self-moderate and make it "expensive" to create or run bots (e.g., make it so API access is limited without an excessive fee, limit screen scrapers, etc). The "pay to play" idea will eliminate an insane amount of the junk, too. Any free network is inherently going to have pr…

> Build the features to allow readers to self-moderate

This is effectively impossible because of the bullshit asymmetry principle[1]. It's easier to create content that needs moderation than it is to moderate it. In general, there is a fundamental asymmetry to life that it takes less effort to destroy than it does to create, less work to harm than heal. With a slightly sharpened piece of metal and about a newton of force, you can end a life. No amount of effort can resurrect it.

It simply doesn't scale to let bad actors cause all the harm they want and rely on good actors to clean up their messes after the fact. The harm must be prevented before it does damage.

> make it "expensive" to create or run bots (e.g., make it so API access is limited without an excessive fee, limit screen scrapers, etc).

The simplest approach would be no API at all, but that won't stop scammers and bad actors. It's effectively impossible to prohibit screen scrapers.

> Make it so you can only follow X people with a free account, but upgrade to follow more. Limit tweets/replies/etc based on this. Not only will it work, but it will remove the need for all of the moderation and arguments around bias.

This is, I think, the best idea. If having an identity and sharing content costs actual money, you can at least make spamming not be cost effective. But that still doesn't eliminate human bad actors griefing others. Some are happy to pay to cause mayhem.

There is no simple technical solution here. Fundamentally, the value proposition of a community is the other good people you get to connect to. But some people are harmful. They may not always be harmful, or may be harmful only to some people. For a community to thrive, you've got to encourage the good behaviors and police the bad ones. That takes work and human judgement.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#252
I've always thought that slashdot handled comment moderation the best. (And even that still had problems.)

In addition to that these tools would help:

(1)Client-side: Being able to block all content from specific users and the replies to specific users.

(2)Server-side: If userA always 'up votes' comments from userB apply a negative weighting to that upvote (so it only counts as 0.01 of a vote). Likewise, with 'group-voting'; if userA, userB, and userC always vote identically down-weight those votes. (this will slow the 'echo chamber' effect)

(3)Account age/contribution scale: if userZ has been a member of the site since it's inception, AND has a majority of their posts up-voted, AND contributes regularly, then give their votes a higher weighted value.

Of course these wouldn't solve everything, as nothing ever will address every scenerio; but I've often thought that these things combined with how slashdot allowed you to score between -1 to 5, AND let you set the 'post value' to 2+, 3+, or 4+ would help eliminate most of the bad actors.

Side note: Bad Actors, and "folks you don't agree with" should not be confused with each other.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#253

A fun idea that I'm certain no one has considered with any level of seriousness: don't moderate anything. Build the features to allow readers to self-moderate and make it "expensive" to create or run bots (e.g., make it so API access is limited without an excessive fee, limit screen scrapers, etc). The "pay to play" idea will eliminate an insane amount of the junk, too. Any free network is inherently going to have pr…

1. There are plenty of places online that "don't moderate anything". In fact, nearly all of the social networks started off that way.

The end result is … well, 4Chan.

2. "Self-moderation" doesn't work, because it's work. User's don't want to have constantly police their feeds and block people, topics, sites, etc. It's also work that never ends. Bad actors jump from one identity to the next. There are no "static" identifiers that are reliable enough for a user to trust.

3. Advertisers aren't going to just "accept" that their money is supporting content they don't want to be associated with. And they're also not interested in spending time white-listing specific accounts they "know" are good.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#254
post #20

> Moderating spam is very interesting: it is almost universally regarded as okay to ban (i.e. CENSORSHIP) but spam is in no way illegal. Interesting, in my country spam is very much illegal and I would hazard a guess that it is also illegal in the US, similar to how littering, putting up posters on peoples buildings/cars/walls, graffiti (a form of spam), and so on is also illegal. If I received the amount of spam I g…

Nudity and porn are other examples of legal speech that have broad acceptance among the public (at least the U.S. public) to moderate or ban on social media platforms.

Yishan's point is, most people's opinions on how well a platform delivers free speech vs censorship will index more to the content of the speech, rather than the pattern of behavior around it.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is everyone, myself included, can be and will be a bad actor. But you likely aren't, and most people likely aren't either. That's the entire premise behind removing bad actors and spaces that allow bad actors to grow.

> But you likely aren't, and most people likely aren't either. Is there any evidence of this? 1% bad content can mean that 1% of your users are bad actors, or it can mean that 100% of your users are bad actors 1% of the time (or anything in between.)

I assume all of us have evidence of this in our daily lives.

Even the best people we know have bad days. But you have probably also encountered people in your life who have consistent patterns of being selfish, destructive, toxic, or harmful.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#256
post #246

> Because it is not TOPICS that are censored. It is BEHAVIOR. > (This is why people on the left and people on the right both think they are being targeted) An enticing idea but simply not the case for any popular existing social network. And it's triply not true on yishan's reddit which both through administrative measures and moderation culture targets any and all communities that do not share the favoured new-left…

No post body was provided.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#257

Every single social media platform that has ever existed makes the same fundamental mistake. They believe that they just have to remove or block the bad actors and bad content and that will make the platform good. The reality is everyone , myself included, can be and will be a bad actor. How do you build and run a "social media" product when the very act of letting anyone respond to anyone with anything is itself the…

> The reality is everyone, myself included, can be and will be a bad actor.

Customised filters for anyone, but I am talking about filters completely under the control of the user. Maybe running locally. We can wrap ourselves in a bubble but better that than having a bubble designed by others.

I think AI will make spam irrelevant over the next decade by switching from searching and reading to prompting the bot. You don't ever need to interface with the filth, you can have your polite bot present the results however you please. It can be your conversation partner and you get to control its biases as well.

Internet AI agent Human

(the web browser of the future, the actual web browser runs in a sandbox under the AI)

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#258

I wish we could all go back to phpBB forums. Small, dedicated, online communities were great. I can't remember massive problems like this back then.

The bad actors were much less prevalent back in the heyday of small phpBB style forums. I have run a forum of this type for 20 years now, since 2002. Around 2011 was when link spam got bad enough that I had to start writing my own bolt-on spam classifier and moderation tools instead of manually deleting spammer accounts. Captchas didn't help because most of the spam was posted by actual humans, not autonomous bots. I…

Yep, if you're on the internet long enough you'll remember the days before you were portscanned constantly. You'll remember the days before legions of bots hammered at your HTTP server. You'd remember it was rare to have some kiddie DDOS your server off the internet and you had to hide behind a 3rd party provider like cloudflare.

That internet is long dead, hence discussions like Dead Internet Theory.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#259
post #61

Here's a radical idea: let me moderate my own shit! Twitter is a subscription-based system (by this, I mean that I have to subscribe to someone's content) so if I subscribe to someone and don't like what they say then buh-bye! Let me right click on a comment/tweet (I don't use social media so not sure of the exact terminology the kids use these days) with the options of: - Hide this comment - Hide all comments in thi…

You're not Twitter's customer. Advertisers are. And they don't want their brands to be associated with unpleasant content.

People producing products don’t actually care. I’d love to see stats on this made public (I’ve seen internal metrics). Facebook and Twitter don’t even show you what your ad is near. You fundamentally just have to “trust” them.

If you have a billboard with someone being raped beneath it and a photo goes viral, no one would blame the company advertising on the billboard. Frankly, no one will associate the two to change their purchasing habits.

The reason corporations care are the ESG scores and activist employees.

Also these brands still advertise in places where public executions will happen (Saudi Arabia). No one is complaining there.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my understanding, he's not claiming this is how twitter currently works. He's offering advice about how to solve content moderation on twitter.

He’s offering advice that differs from what Reddit does in practice. They absolutely ban content rather than behavior. Try questioning “the science” and it doesn’t matter how considerate you are, you will be banned.

He covers that further down in the tweets, near the end of the thread. He doesn't necessarily agree with the Reddit way of doing things, but it has interesting compromises wrt privacy.
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