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macOS Ventura is now available

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Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#251

Post by anigbrowl »

deergomoo wrote: post #183
anigbrowl wrote: post #167

The update is cool but the update process was not. -Update available, wanna install? Sure -OK don't mind me I'm gonna need a while OK -HA HA I LIED I"M READY TO TERMINATE EVERYTHING BYEEEE WTF 5 reboots with just an Apple icon and a progress bar The progress bar also moves backwards sometimes I guess it's a metaphor for life, which is how long this seems to be taking -OK hello I am back but I need 10 minutes of alone…

I got a Windows PC for the first time in over a decade recently and I cannot understand why MacOS updates are so damned slow

Windows does frequent incremental updates and makes them pretty painless, but has a bad habit of just letting the installation files pile up and fill your storage. If you or your PC supplier have the habit of having a small-medium boot disk (or partition) for just your OS and applications this can yield unwelcome surprises.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#252

Post by sbuk »

behnamoh wrote: post #109
ngrilly wrote: post #63

To switch to another window, we already had Command-Tab, Mission Control, Expose (now part of Mission Control if I understand correctly), and also clicking on the icons in the Dock. And now we have Stage Manager. I had to use Windows 10 as my main workstation for a few weeks at work, and I'm starting to think windows management is – perhaps – one of the rare things Windows does better than macOS. But of course I shou…

This. It's unacceptable that macOS still doesn't support basic window management and users have to install Tiles/Spectacles/Magnet/etc.

Is it? I mean really "unacceptable"? Inconvenient, perhaps, but "unacceptable"? Sounds pretty first-worldy to me...

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#254

Post by rubyist5eva »

samuelstros wrote: post #97
ngrilly wrote: post #63

To switch to another window, we already had Command-Tab, Mission Control, Expose (now part of Mission Control if I understand correctly), and also clicking on the icons in the Dock. And now we have Stage Manager. I had to use Windows 10 as my main workstation for a few weeks at work, and I'm starting to think windows management is – perhaps – one of the rare things Windows does better than macOS. But of course I shou…

I concluded that Windows has a better window management too. It is no coincidence that Mac users have hundreds of windows open while Windows users stay relatively organized. I tried out uBar for Mac OS https://ubarapp.com/ . Too buggy though.

> It is no coincidence that Mac users have hundreds of windows open while Windows users stay relatively organized.

Personally, I leave tons of windows open because I feel no need to keep things "organized". I rarely feel the need to constantly micro manage things that are running because cmd+tab and cmd+` along with mission control/expose/spaces makes it pretty simple to find what I'm looking for. My individual windows go into pretty specific positions and they rarely move, and I also rarely fully close applications.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#255

Post by anigbrowl »

duffyjp wrote: post #227
anigbrowl wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is with that extended scrolling thing though. I want to look at the scrollbar to know how long a document (including a web page) is, not have it keep changing as I move farther into it. 'Oh people don't like looking at long documents' - then they're not your target customers and you should just ignore them and stop listening to the ad sales person who is paid by commission.

Probably lazy loading the images/content blocks when you get near to save bandwidth but not having same-sized placeholders. I see that a lot.

That's a better guess than mine. I'm surprised that a high quality site like AT would accept such a low quality user experience.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#256

Post by derefr »

runjake wrote: post #187
deergomoo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a Windows PC for the first time in over a decade recently and I cannot understand why MacOS updates are so damned slow

Because on newer Macs, it’s rewriting the whole OS partition with a new firmware image, much like iOS and IPSW files. Windows, on the other hand, generally does incremental upgrades.

That doesn't imply it should be slow; that should imply it should be fast.

At least, given that macOS is using a copy-on-write filesystem such that you can share blocks between multiple volumes/snapshots — which it is; and that the OS base-image is a sealed "everyone has the same cryptographic checksum" volume — which it is; and that Apple are using a binary-diff-based "create aside" OS-image update process, like ChromiumOS/CoreOS — which they are. They should only have to write out disk pages for the changes, and then just link the existing pages in to form the rest of the extents. Like a `btrfs receive`.

But for some reason, despite all that fancy tech, it's still slow; and the install process still requires rebooting into a separate Recovery OS to do parts of the installation. Which, given the "create aside" part especially, is just ridiculous. You should be able to just run the installer in the background as you're using your device, and eventually be told "when you reboot, it'll be into the new OS."

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#258

Post by billti »

CharlesW wrote: post #200
rubiquity wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's playbook is to use hardware support as a reason to drop software support to encourage (nudge?) customers to buy more hardware. Recently it has been dropping new macOS versions for non-metal GPUs and now (Monterey) not supporting SSDs without T2/Secure Enclave, and there are other examples before those. You get bit by this and decide if you want to stay on that train or get off. I was one-and-done with that ec…

> Apple's playbook is to use hardware support as a reason to drop software support to encourage (nudge?) customers to buy more hardware. I mean, Apple was making new versions of macOS that supported the 2013 Mac Pro until literally today. If that's their playbook, they're not doing great.

I just bought a new 14" M1 MacBook Pro because they stopped doing OS updates for my 2014 Intel MacBook Pro. Kinda sad, as the 2014 MacBook Pro is still, STILL - in 2022!, one of the best laptops I've had (including for running Windows via Bootcamp). Being it had no trade-in value, I'll keep using it as a test machine for Intel builds of my app.

But yeah, the new Apple Silicon laptops are incredible, and I'm happy with the new purchase. If I get 8 years out of this one too, I'll be more than happy. To me, that's a reasonable length of time to support OSes on old hardware.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#259

Post by stouset »

hwbehrens wrote: post #132
orpheansodality wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow - how is this not the default? It's always the behavior that I expect to happen, and I'm pretty much always surprised and disappointed when it does a global search instead.

> how is this not the default? This is just speculation, but based on a conversation with my partner, there are two types of computer users. The first group makes use of hierarchical storage, consistent naming conventions, and other organizational tricks to give them a rough idea of where any file might be. The second group has never heard the term "file systems" and just stores everything with an arbitrary name in w…

To me this is definitely it. Using non-technical people's computers is eye-opening. Thousands of files scattered around on the Desktop, Documents, or wherever they just happened to go. Finding something in a specific directory would be a completely foreign concept.

Re: macOS Ventura is now available

#260

Post by stalfosknight »

throwup wrote: post #205
runjake wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because on newer Macs, it’s rewriting the whole OS partition with a new firmware image, much like iOS and IPSW files. Windows, on the other hand, generally does incremental upgrades.

That can't be the whole story. If we assume the drive can write 500MB/s (conservative), and an OS install takes up 50GB of space (conservative), it should take less than 2 minutes to write the partition. Where does the other 58 minutes go?

EFI updates are sometimes included with new versions of macOS.
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