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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

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Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#251

Post by winrid »

ramesh31 wrote: post #40
nottorp wrote: post #3

Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it...

>Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it... CVT is, theoretically, infinitely superior to a traditional geared automatic transmission. They got a bad wrap at first (just like traditional automatics) when they were introduced, but the tech has matured and they are extremely reliable now.

Based on what metric? I play with new cars that come out, every year, for fairly low speed technical driving competitions. I get to try a lot of models. The CVTs always overheat. Always. I bring a spray bottle of water to cool the radiator down between runs (the CVT cooling is piped into the rad).

The current Hyundai's and Kias using traditional six speed autos never overheat. The Spark is one of my favorite cars to drive on these courses, and unfortunately even the 98hp 1.4L will overheat the CVT after a minute of hard driving.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#252

Post by garyfirestorm »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #186
garyfirestorm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a regulatory requirement that specifies how much minimum noise should be emitted in each frequency band. All BEVs need this pedestrian alert system. It takes into account that partially deaf people may not be able to hear certain frequencies say tire noise band.

There are a few models of ice cars that basically are very quiet when they drive slowly. Nobody ever complains about how quiet they are. It's not a problem. And it was never a problem in the past. It's only a problem when EV's are concerned. Or rather it's a problem people imagine is real because other people who also did not do their homework say it is so based on what they've heard.

I actually work for an automotive company and specifically deal with vehicle acoustics. Yes EVs at low speeds are imperceptible and a danger to even a person with baseline hearing let alone a partially deaf or blind person. These regulations are there for a reason. It’s not imagination. We measure quantifiable data using reference microphones. Though I agree that some gas cars are extremely quiet and difficult to perceive, that doesn’t mean we should shackle ourselves and prevent meaningful change for next generation vehicles.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#253

Post by danbolt »

kvark wrote: post #202
hbarka wrote: post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

When would you actually need to not have the max regen braking? You can always just push the drive pedal slightly to let the car know you aren’t slowing down, instead.

When I’ve driven a Nissan Leaf, I almost keep it entirely in B mode. Keeping the battery level up feels almost gamified.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#254

Post by raxxorraxor »

salmo wrote: post #218
zcw100 wrote: post #134

I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have one last dignified drive into the sunset.

It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by a manual. I’m engaged in the machine. It’s fun and you don’t need a real sports car. But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree. If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in. Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style…

A few years ago a manual could really help to fine tune car performance, but a modern automatic transmission is just superior to anyone switching gears. Especially if you have a strong motor with a high torque that can polish any slip clutch in a second.

I would really like a modern car without shitty media systems. A desktop PC with mouse and keyboard would be awesome, directly attached to any sensor periphery and the coffee machine of course.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#255

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

jac_no_k wrote: post #232
Animats wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

Nissan Leaf with it's single pedal setup is like a driving a car in 2nd gear, where the speed can go down to zero and accelerate all the way up to highway speeds. In single pedal mode, slowing down to a stop is a lifting the accelerator pedal completely and it will come to a stop in predictable manner. The brake pedal adds more regen and stronger application applies the brakes itself. From a stop, pushing down the ac…

Teslas have THREE stopping modes.

The first is "Creep" which behaves like a classic automatic transmission. It basically matches the dual-pedal mode.

The second is "Stop", which matches the single-pedal mode you describe.

But there's a third mode, "Roll", which essentially mimics a manual transmission in neutral once speeds get below ~7 mph.

When I first got my Tesla, I came from a car with a manual transmission, so "Roll" made me feel at home and I used it for the first couple weeks. But once I tried out "Stop" mode and tried out single-pedal driving, I was sold. There's no going back. It's now exceptionally rare for me to use the brake pedal.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#256

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

Analemma_ wrote: post #156
itronitron wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why should manual transmissions be limited to only petroleum powered engine? Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. The only options for an electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and the parent is arguing for the latter and against “transmission cosplay”. A real manual transmission on an electric car would have no point.

> Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range.

I would argue that for an EV that is not designed to be a sports car (ie, a Model 3), you are correct.

But one that is being designed to not just have power off the line, but also at the top end, will probably need a transmission.

I do wonder if the top speed of my Model 3 Performance is due to simply not having enough power to overcome drag, or if the motors are reaching the end of their RPM range.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#257

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

spookthesunset wrote: post #141
culopatin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing the clutch is good for is to get the tires loose with a clutch kick or to detach the engine drag from the wheels if one so desired.

Wouldn’t a motor be able to chirp the tires all by itself? Dunno how much drag the motor would create if allowed to spin freely…

A clutch-kick can dump more torque into the wheels than the motor could possibly produce.

Though a clutch-kick in an ICE operates based on the inertia of the rotating engine. I wonder how much inertia an electric motor has and if a clutch-kick would even be as effective.

What they really need is a hydraulic parking brake lever. Being able to lock the rear tires is a necessity for drifting situations when you want to increase angle while also scrubbing speed.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#258

Post by lokedhs »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #200
lokedhs wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the Niro EV, and it was my first EV. The paddle shifters are amazing, and you get used to them very quickly. I recently rented another EV and I was surprised it wasn't there. Most of the time I can drive without even touching the brake pedal, since you can hold the left paddle and it will engage maximum engine braking, which it quite powerful. This helps with battery as well since there is less energy loss whe…

I thought anything other than really hard braking didn't actually happen anyway, it was actually done with regen.

Perhaps it does. When I use the pedal the display shows a amount of regen power. However, as I press harder there is no obvious transition where the actual brakes take effect. It feels completely natural, which is why I thought it applied the brakes immediately. Perhaps the design is just so good that you can't tell.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#260

Post by nottorp »

winrid wrote: post #251
ramesh31 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it... CVT is, theoretically, infinitely superior to a traditional geared automatic transmission. They got a bad wrap at first (just like traditional automatics) when they were introduced, but the tech has matured and they are extremely reliable now.

Based on what metric? I play with new cars that come out, every year, for fairly low speed technical driving competitions. I get to try a lot of models. The CVTs always overheat. Always. I bring a spray bottle of water to cool the radiator down between runs (the CVT cooling is piped into the rad). The current Hyundai's and Kias using traditional six speed autos never overheat. The Spark is one of my favorite cars to…

I wouldn't like an automatic for any kind of sporty driving, even just going on mountain roads at the speed limit :)

Love CVTs in city traffic though.

Interesting how everyone who answered thought I don't like CVTs. I was just pointing out the discrepancy.

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