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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#251

Post by ajuc »

NHQ wrote: post #147
otikik wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick 3 random stones and arrange them so that they form a straight line. Does the line "exist"? If you consider that only the atoms "count" for existing, then the line does not exist. (Neither do the stones, by the way - since they are constantly exchanging minor quantities of atoms and electrons with the rest of the environment, the set that defines what each stone is is constantly changing. But let's ignore that bi…

You are conflating abstract reasoning with consciousness. Your invisible line has no effect on the substrate, because the line does not exists. Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex. The lines you describe are placed by your intuition. Most math is intuitive as such, and exists outside of mind, which is why anybody can "discover" axioms, ratios, etc. If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic order…

> Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex.

Or so it seems. It's entirely possible that consciousness is just post-factum rationalization of what the body did.

Have you noticed that sometimes you make a decision but don't do it, and sometimes you make a decision and do it?

> If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic ordering inside the brain would create a precise and useful thought, such as how to find the ratio of radius to diameter.

Does not follow.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#252

Post by e_i_pi_2 »

EmilyHughes wrote: post #203
e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fair to say we do know that we have a somewhat physical brain. Even if it's part of a dream then our definition of "physical" would be scoped to that dream and still be accurate

It's really not the same thing, its the complete opposite. It's brain->consciousness vs. consciousness->brain

I was just talking about the physicality of the brain, so it'd be (physical brain)->consciousness vs. consciousness->("physical" brain). Either way in all ways that matter to us the brain is physical.

I think of it similarly to how atoms are mostly empty space - we can know that's true but the main thing that matters most of the time is that you don't fall through the floor, so we reason about the world as if solid objects are actually solid

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#253

Post by alok-g »

jck wrote: post #143
ne0flex wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the rational side of me thinks that death is probably oblivion, I just don't want to admit it. After a friend of mine passed away, I did a lot of soul searching and basically came to the conclusion that there's nothing after death. It was mentally destructive for me and sent me into a bout of depression. I'd hate to think that we're going through all this just to have your entire life multiplied by 0 at the end…

Some would argue the exact opposite - that the ephemeral nature of existence makes being alive that much more special. That our finite existence here is a gift to treasure and enjoy and not just something you tolerate while you wait for the "real thing"(eternal existence in heaven or whatever)

>> ... and enjoy

This means what exactly in the grand scheme of things. Hormones circulating in the body, creating some perceptions for the mind, where both may cease when the finite existence ends?

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#254

Post by e_i_pi_2 »

dsego wrote: post #156
e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with the parent post but was coming here to say the same thing - the best argument I've heard along these lines is that the signal is still transmitting but "you" aren't receiving it. This kinda makes goes against the idea of consciousness where you're aware of stuff, so in this case it should be more like an out-of-body experience that you do remember, but I could easily see someone arguing that it's…

There are crazier theories out there. > There is only one reality per person. It is set up by the soul specifically to obtain experiences from. We do not share our reality with anyone. It only looks that way. > To facilitate educational growth, Souls create “Realities”. Realities are a classroom that Souls can grow through a surrogate “human” > Soul places an “interface” within the constructed “reality”. This is know…

This reminded me of a short story I read by the guy that wrote "The Martian" - it's different from what you're describing but in this model there's only one person and they're living every life through reincarnation, with the goal being that you experience all human lives and then you're fully matured and able to move on to whatever the next step is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Egg_(Weir_short_story)

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#255

Post by jprd »

Radiolab, consciousness and the state of being. All with informed individuals who are looking to encourage the discussion and discovery without just dunking on people.

HN is special, and this thread is a great example.

Thank you to everyone who's posted!

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#256

Post by jck »

alok-g wrote: post #253
jck wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would argue the exact opposite - that the ephemeral nature of existence makes being alive that much more special. That our finite existence here is a gift to treasure and enjoy and not just something you tolerate while you wait for the "real thing"(eternal existence in heaven or whatever)

>> ... and enjoy This means what exactly in the grand scheme of things. Hormones circulating in the body, creating some perceptions for the mind, where both may cease when the finite existence ends?

And how does life being infinite suddenly make it meaningful for you?

Life means nothing in the "grand scheme of things". It just is. You exist because of a long sequence of random events and then it just sort of ends. There's no deeper meaning, it's just how our universe works. In this brief moment when you get to exist, you can choose to do things which make you feel good.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#257

Post by galangalalgol »

simonh wrote: post #153
galangalalgol wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A difference that makes no difference is no difference.'

So how would you feel if I offered to make two copies of you, but in the process your body would be instantly and painlessly destroyed. That's twice as much of you. A good deal, yes? I could offer to do the same for your children. You'd have twice as many loving kids to look after you in your old age.

I would take all of those deals. And if I could somehow upload, I'm releasing my model and weights under copyleft to ensure there are plenty of me around operating automatic doors, flying taxis for uber, enjoying time, and yes, probably being tortured by some sicko in VR.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#258

Post by labrador »

alok-g wrote: post #249
labrador wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I anesthetized myself to the point of complete blackout for 24 hours I walked to the store and purchased things Dead people don't walk to the store and purchase things Therefore being anesthetized is not like being dead

Of course. We are intending to compare only the first part, i.e., going into the period of blackout. The original commentator's [1] is claiming that the experience of death is similar to the experience of going into blackout with anesthesia. And then, for the latter, the person comes back with partial memories of that going-into phase. Hence the original commentator claims that the experience of death has already bee…

> The original commentator's is claiming that the experience of death is similar to the experience of going into blackout with anesthesia

I'm not getting your point. I am going to assume that like a lot of people you have a fixed conception of being dead and that is you cease to exist. If you believe that, then I can see how you can compare being dead to being anesthetized.

I'm saying being dead may be far different than being anesthetized:

- You die and cease to exist

- You die and wake up from this computer simulation into an alien world

- You die and wake up in Heaven with the God that you've believed in all your life

- You die and are one with the universal consciousness. You return to the ocean of consciousness like a wave crashing on the shore returns to the sea

- You die and wake up in Nirvana or the body of a pig depending on your Karma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana)

And so on. No one can say being anesthetized is like being dead

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#259

Post by jck »

ne0flex wrote: post #170
jck wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would argue the exact opposite - that the ephemeral nature of existence makes being alive that much more special. That our finite existence here is a gift to treasure and enjoy and not just something you tolerate while you wait for the "real thing"(eternal existence in heaven or whatever)

I don't necessarily view life as a toleration of living and waiting until death, o hope for a "real thing" after death. I'm more hoping for something along of the lines of a "next phase" like transition from school life to working life. The idea the equation of experiences and knowledge if your life ends with an ...)*0 is just depressing. I'd like to continue to build on my life experiences and reconnect with loved o…

Yeah death sucks and most people aren't ready for it. We can't really know if "afterlife" exists but imo, it's not wise to live life assuming that that is the case. It might be better to do your best assuming you can't tell if there is an afterlife. If there's no afterlife, you did your best and if there is one then it's a bonus.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#260

Post by alok-g »

jck wrote: post #256
alok-g wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> ... and enjoy This means what exactly in the grand scheme of things. Hormones circulating in the body, creating some perceptions for the mind, where both may cease when the finite existence ends?

And how does life being infinite suddenly make it meaningful for you? Life means nothing in the "grand scheme of things". It just is. You exist because of a long sequence of random events and then it just sort of ends. There's no deeper meaning, it's just how our universe works. In this brief moment when you get to exist, you can choose to do things which make you feel good.

>> And how does life being infinite suddenly make it meaningful for you?

Good point.

Not about me though, many people derive meaning out of life being infinite, which is what I guess underlies even the conceptualization of reincarnation.

I personally am more inclined towards it being finite, like you said. Under that scenario, the question comes, what do "enjoyment", "happiness", etc. really mean?

>> Life means nothing in the "grand scheme of things". It just is. You exist because of a long sequence of random events and then it just sort of ends. There's no deeper meaning, it's just how our universe works. In this brief moment when you get to exist, you can choose to do things which make you feel good.

I agree in general.

And then I disagree with people viewing suicide negatively. If it just is, just ends, has no deeper meaning, and all the more so is about 'feeling good', then there is (a) nothing negative about someone not feeling good choosing to end it, and (b) nothing negative about choosing to end with a realization that even feeling good ultimately remains meaningless only.

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