High property taxes are good • Hacker News Board

Re: High property taxes are good

#251

Post by brockwhittaker » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:41 PM UTC

firloop wrote: post #166

This article doesn't provide any reasons why a property owner should want lower property taxes; why would you want to constrain prices and prevent speculation? I don't own any property myself and am sympathetic to the idea of raising property tax, but many arguments for LVT/raising property taxes don't paint a convincing argument for why property owners should vote against their self interests.

This is totally my personal bias, but I'm unsure that speculation has a positive value in the housing market, and I think governments should largely try to ensure that as many people as possible can afford homes, rather than ensuring that people can profit off the sales of their homes.

In the United States, people have long seen real estate as a path to wealth (unlike Japan, for example), so it's difficult to reason that people's primary homes shouldn't be their escape hatch into retirement (e.g. the dream of someone buying a house in 1980s Palo Alto and selling it in 2022).

Re: High property taxes are good

#252

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #239

tptacek wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does tax policy need to directly influence the mix of 1bdr and 3bdr apartments? Renters who need 3bdr apartments have enormous influence over the market already.

Can you say more about the influence of renters? It seems to me to be the opposite. The mortgage interest tax deduction is a massive regressive government subsidy for homeowners, and penalizes younger people who rent or cannot afford to buy a home. So I’m curious what suggests to you that renters have political power. To me it seems the opposite - tax policy massively prefers owners over renters.

Renters are overwhelmingly living in properties that have mortgages against them and commercial loans are always deductible. The deduction for mortgages on owner-occupied property serves to put prospective owners (including current renters) on a more equal footing when bidding against landlords for property.

Re: High property taxes are good

#253

Post by zdragnar » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

zbyte64 wrote: post #216

landemva wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a town like this. 'Roads' are actually reciprocal easements to allow all other land owners to pass. Each lot has water well and septic, though one group of houses has a large shared water system which pools the individual well permits. Electricity and gas and internet are private companies using an easement. Police and fire can easily be funded by sales tax, just like the public transit. Alternatively, land…

Probably don't have bears in the area: https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-int...

Wait, why on earth is the article advising you to flee from a black bear? You literally cannot outrun a black bear- I've driven along side one that was running parallel to the road at around 30 miles an hour.

If there aren't cubs around, you yell, clap and raise your arms. It'll run in a heartbeat. If there are cubs around, you back away slowly- running will just make it chase you. If it follows, stop moving.

Re: High property taxes are good

#254

Post by rcpt » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

chadash wrote: post #95

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #6

Land value taxes are even better. Property taxes provide a disincentive to making the land more productive. A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents.

The biggest problem (IMO) is that it's not so simple to value land. Where I live, being two blocks over can make a huge difference. It's easy to say "you paid $500k for your house, so we're gonna tax you on $500k". It's much harder to accurately say what someone would have paid for the land were it not developed. I understand the benefits of LVT, but how do you solve this? Are there any good examples of governments t…

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-par...

Had a good summary of land valuation problems

Re: High property taxes are good

#255

Post by goatcode » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

Here's a crazy idea: 0% for primary residence, 50% for income properties (rentals, etc.). Will it kill renting? Heck no, not for property owners who live in one of their own units, at least. It might affect individuals and entities who hoard and exploit people, though.

Re: High property taxes are good

#256

Post by bko » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

raldi wrote: post #246

chadash wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem (IMO) is that it's not so simple to value land. Where I live, being two blocks over can make a huge difference. It's easy to say "you paid $500k for your house, so we're gonna tax you on $500k". It's much harder to accurately say what someone would have paid for the land were it not developed. I understand the benefits of LVT, but how do you solve this? Are there any good examples of governments t…

Just let property owners declare a value for their land, and give anyone the right to buy it for 120% of that value at any time, with the existing owner given a grace period where they can restate their estimate.

That sounds awful. Imagine being forced to move every few years or giving people with money that much power over you. Seems crazy that this idea is so popular. I'm guessing the people who like this idea are very young and mobile. Imagine telling grandma she has to move and sell her house and have police show up at the door when she doesn't want to. It's basically the abuses of eminent domain except done privately.

Re: High property taxes are good

#257

Post by zdragnar » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

kashkhan wrote: post #123

dwater wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way people in the US plan for old age and retirement, and the way they are treated by society, is terrible and property taxes are aspect of that. But the only way you should be able to own land tax free is if there are no government services provided on that land. No utilities, no public road, no emergency services, no municipal services. I don't know of anywhere in the US where that is an option. Unless you're s…

The traditional (neoclassical economics) view is that taxes pay for services, but that's not how it really works. The federal government buys these services with money it creates, and then only later does it tax it back. For state an local governments this is mostly true but even there the federal government helps out. What you want is for the wealthy to pay for the poor and old and those without much wealth or incom…

State and local governments in the US cannot create money. They either tax it first or run a debt by selling bonds.

Re: High property taxes are good

#258

Post by rcpt » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:46 PM UTC

bbatha wrote: post #168

chadash wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem (IMO) is that it's not so simple to value land. Where I live, being two blocks over can make a huge difference. It's easy to say "you paid $500k for your house, so we're gonna tax you on $500k". It's much harder to accurately say what someone would have paid for the land were it not developed. I understand the benefits of LVT, but how do you solve this? Are there any good examples of governments t…

Outside of California "you paid $500k for your house, so we're gonna tax you on $500k" is not how property taxes work. The town/city/county typically does property assessments on regular basis (usually annually). These are based on doing comparisons with like houses in your neighborhood and are equal prone to "2 blocks over is way more desirable".

This happens in California to. When you buy the state still decides the value of the land (else people would do under the table cash deals like they do with cars).

Usually the assessment and sale price are not far off.

Re: High property taxes are good

#259

Post by nayuki » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:46 PM UTC

raldi wrote: post #246

chadash wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem (IMO) is that it's not so simple to value land. Where I live, being two blocks over can make a huge difference. It's easy to say "you paid $500k for your house, so we're gonna tax you on $500k". It's much harder to accurately say what someone would have paid for the land were it not developed. I understand the benefits of LVT, but how do you solve this? Are there any good examples of governments t…

Just let property owners declare a value for their land, and give anyone the right to buy it for 120% of that value at any time, with the existing owner given a grace period where they can restate their estimate.

What about land that already has buildings on it? The buyer can't just take the land without the building. So how do you take the building's value into account?

Re: High property taxes are good

#260

Post by bbbobbb » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:47 PM UTC

raldi wrote: post #246

chadash wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem (IMO) is that it's not so simple to value land. Where I live, being two blocks over can make a huge difference. It's easy to say "you paid $500k for your house, so we're gonna tax you on $500k". It's much harder to accurately say what someone would have paid for the land were it not developed. I understand the benefits of LVT, but how do you solve this? Are there any good examples of governments t…

Just let property owners declare a value for their land, and give anyone the right to buy it for 120% of that value at any time, with the existing owner given a grace period where they can restate their estimate.

I don't get the joke. So in your scenario people are basically not allowed to own land and the benefit is what?