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Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
251–260 of 403 posts
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
That analogy is poor because we don’t know of a good alternative to democratic governments. But there is an obvious alternative to unions that many workers do prefer.
And they can still choose it, since unions are not compulsory as far as I know? So what are we discussing about?
Not necessarily. Unions can and do negotiate terms that protect union members to ridiculous extents at the cost of making what is basically an underclass out of non-union employees and employees of other unions. You'll find terms that limit certain scopes of work exclusively to employees of a certain union, and even employees of that union with a certain standing within it. Some of this work is gravy train shit that you'll never get to see if you're not in the union or not in the right union. In some unions, working non-union jobs can result in repeating fees for the length of time you do it. Do it long enough and you'll be so far in the hole that you'll effectively never be able to pay it back, you'll never be in good standing, and you'll join the rest of the employees outside of your union that can't draw crazy high pay for very easy work.
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hold on just to be clear: do you think the problem in Detroit is that the unions weren't powerful enough ?
To be clear, just read again. I don't claim to be an expert about Detroit's union history by the way. > Unions can be corrupted or do mistakes
>I don't claim to be an expert about Detroit's union history by the way.
Industry in Detroit is a perfect example of what can happen when unions have way too much power. The current conversation really downplays how ridiculously powerful unions like the UAW were. It was effectively impossible to lose your job -- you would have line workers that would bring a portable TV to work and watch their work roll past them all day, and they were able to do that until the plants closed down because of the terms the union had in place. I have multiple drawers of tools from vendors that only ever sold B2B; in my father's time, you would buy them off UAW members that stole them from auto manufacturers in decently large quantities, because you wouldn't get fired for it. The only way to reliably lose your job was to cross the union itself. Even people who were part of a union at that time will pretty readily admit that they were unsustainably powerful. We're not even started on the organized crime that came out of unions in Detroit at that time.
The point isn't that unions shouldn't exist at all. The point is that you need to be really careful with comments like the root comment, which describe unions as the common man engaging in a heroic struggle against the forces of capitalist evil, while completely glossing over what they have become in multiple places at multiple points in history.
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who is more efficient than Amazon/Walmart/Target/Home Depot/Staples/Costco/etc? They set the bottom price, and if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins, then their costs increases will have to end up in either prices increases or them no longer selling the product. The funny thing is that it is Amazon coming along and greatly increasing demand for labor (in conjunction with reduced supply of that type of labor) that…
> if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins They're not (depending on the product). My wife used to work in Halloween costume design for a wholesaler (and some of her costumes did end up in Target and Walmart, which was cool to see), and the retailers' margins on those were at least 50%. As I said, the margin does depend heavily on the product, but do not assume that across-the-board average margins are anywhere near…
That's a markup, not a profit margin. A profit margin is after all expenses, which a wholesaler doesn't know about.
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
"This will go down on your permanent record..." -- Bezos in helium voice I remember quitting from Krogers bagging groceries when I was a kid. I forget why, but I did give less than 2 weeks notice. Mr. Manager gravely conveyed that if I did this, I'd be barred from working for them again forever. Pretty sure my poker face then was not what it is now, but in any case I did not find that to be anywhere nearly as distres…
I wish r/kroger and r/antiwork would intersect more, it's so sad to see the experiences people post in the former
r/antiwork is propaganda and true-believers amplifying that propaganda.
r/Kroger and r/Walmart are real people just trying to deal with life as best they can.
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if what is published from time to time on media is actually true That's a big IF. Unions were invented after the onset of the industrial revolution to combat truly unsafe work conditions in industrial settings where worker's dying was common. OSHA did away with all that. The current generation of "bad work condition" complaints is around getting adequate bathroom breaks.
OSHA did away with all that on paper . In reality, OSHA compliance varies considerably across manual labor jobs. Here's how: Suppose you're a manager/foreman. You never outright tell your staff to ignore safety regulations; you simply give them a huge workload with a deadline and set of equipment that make it impossible to feasibly accomplish the workload within compliance. Your workers catch on that in order to get…
...
So why didn't you push back and hold the manager foreman's feet to the fire for the scheduling if you knew it caused OSHA violations?
If you do not push back against management, nothing changes, and unfortunately, to get anything provable in a court of law beyond he said she said... It has to be on paper/in an email.
Go on. Text your boss you can't get the job done on his schedule without violating OSHA standards. Then come back tomorrow and finish it. If they decide to fire you, sue. All the evidence you need will be discoverable.
Don't absorb risk for people not putting their neck on the line.
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
Amazon has significantly increased wages. They were at the forefront of the $15 wage, more than double the federal minimum wage. I think at the time Walmart was at $10 or $11. I live in very liberal SF but outside of my bubble, I hear people complain that it’s not possible to hire Nannies/housecleaners/employees anymore when Amazon and Starbucks pay $18/hr. Seems like the answer is easy: pay them more or make the job…
Yes, a big chunk of the labor shortages in hospitality, child care, etc. we’ve seen the last two years is a direct result of Amazon hiring lots and lots of people. And as shitty as the conditions of those jobs may be, they’re often still better than where they’re coming from. Sticking labels to boxes and moving them around a warehouse all day may still be better than dealing with handsy bar hounds or screaming childr…
> But I will say that unionization does come with a cost that is borne not by Amazon’s executives or their shareholders, but ...
I like parts of the analysis (if a big player has to pay higher wages, this will affect many in different ways). But I think it's hard to discuss what exactly the implications would be without a deeper analysis including numbers.
Without numbers, I find that participants in a discussion are often tempted to put a high emphasis on a certain argument or on the impact of a mechanism just because they have come up with that argument or mechanism. But actual numbers might imply a different weighting.
An example would be: With longer fingernails you might be able to swim faster. But to what degree?
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
The majority of the auto factory jobs that were (e.g. automotive assembly line work) are considered unskilled work; not even semi-skilled; never mind high-skill.
two points were made: 1. only low skilled jobs were outsourced 2. low skilled jobs by definition do not pay more than $30/hr. i am saying at least one of these is wrong, but it really is a question of semantics which one it is.
I rather think the point is that outsourcing of those jobs was proof of the assertion that unskilled manufacturing jobs at $30/hr (in 2022 money) plus rich benefits are not a thing that was sustainable.
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
> he only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If everyone gets paid tomorrow 100 USD/hour, everything around you will start costing 10x more. Look at Switzerland.
The social effects of this seem to be really good, if you look at quality of life in Switzerland. If wages at the bottom go up and that causes inflation, the overall impact of that is wage compression, or in other words, reduced income inequality. Which is what we want.
>reduced income inequality. Which is what we want.
Reducing the PPP of rich people while only maintaining that of poorer people seems like a dubious policy outcome, at least in economic terms.
Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
But... aren't wages in Switzerland also higher than their close neighbours? It's the same thing in Norway - everything seems expensive for visitors, but wages are much higher too.
The point is that once you raise wages, the cost of living automatically goes up. You don't make everyone rich, you end up paying more for everything.
Wouldn’t this situation make imported goods cheaper for everyone?