Earlier quoted context omitted.
You forgot couple important aspects: he also ruined the Russian economy (the conservative estimate is -12% GDP drop this year). Russian military industry also lost access to the Western high tech (unfortunately, a lot of it has been used in their modern equipment, such as missiles, aircraft, etc). It will take at least a decade for them rebuild the armed forces after the war with Ukraine. There is indeed a risk of Kr…
>You forgot couple important aspects: he also ruined the Russian economy (the conservative estimate is -12% GDP drop this year The conservative estimate was that the ruble would plunge about 30% as a result of the war. It's now bizarrely higher than its been in 5 years. I dont remember anybody foreseeing that. Zero. Not one analyst. Ive only heard retrospective justifications for why it happened which any idiot can c…
Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
251–260 of 310 posts
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you believe a Gallup poll should dictate a country's borders or serve as justification for a nation being invaded by its neighbor?
No, but I believe referenda should. Ukraine gained its independence that way after all. The gallup polls simply confirmed that the referendum that was run by Russian troops was more or less free and fair. I believe this is a good litmus test of peoples belief in democracy as a matter of principle. Belief in democracy means commitment to voting especially when you dont like the result. It appears a lot of people do no…
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
And giving up their land and independence is the last thing Ukrainians want, so it sounds like Ukraine and NATO are on the same page in terms of not appeasing a senile tyrant invading a sovereign nation.
It's what 90% of crimeans wanted according to gallup polling. The way I see it the west either fights for empire or we fight for democracy. If we fight for democracy then we respect votes we dont like whose results are independently verified by pollsters we trust. Particularly votes that breach the 90%+ threshold. That would match our principles. In Ukraine neither Kyiv, the west nor Russia fights for democracy thoug…
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Better to let them walk all over you than risk destroying the world everybody lives in It's very easy to ask others to be meek, why don't you offer yourself to Russians to walk them over you? I mean, Russia would be very happy to have Alaska, perhaps you should offer it to them so they don't destroy the world. > ... doubt there is a single person in america willing to accept ... Thankfully there are several europea…
> why don't you offer yourself to Russians to walk them over you? I mean, Russia would be very happy to have Alaska I'm brazilian. We don't have nuclear weapons. We barely even have a space program. If USA wanted to take the Amazon, I doubt there's anything we could do about it and I seriously doubt anyone else would intervene in our favor. > Thankfully there are several european nations with independent nuclear capa…
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are buying too much into the Russian propaganda. First, it is not NATO which expanded "into" the Baltic States and Eastern Europe. These countries voluntarily applied and their diplomats lobbied very hard to get accepted into NATO, precisely because of Russia's aggressive and militaristic policies. Why do you think that these sovereign European nations actually want to be a "buffer"? Why do you think somebody sho…
Arguing NATO didn't expand into the Baltic states is semantics, at best. Sure the countries have to apply to join but the current NATO members have to acquiesce. Even with this relationship the US can (and has) communicated policy prior to expansion. The act of expnasion itself is evidene of US policy since the US could veto it fif it was something it didn't want. My suspicion is you're viewing the US as a benign heg…
You talk about technicalities, but you ignore the key point here: these countries saw NATO membership being vital for their national security.
> My suspicion is you're viewing the US as a benign hegemony. The problem with this thinking is it makes it harder to see things from the other side, namely that another foreign power might reasonably perceive "benign" actions as hotile.
Perhaps it isn't, but it is benign for those countries who want to join (or joined) NATO. So, what is wrong with that?
> This is especially true of NATO, which was founded on the idea of screwing the USSR (quite literally). Well the USSR doesn't exist anymore yet NATO persists. Russia has to view that as aggressive especially with continued expansion.
If Russia would not be a dictatorship which threatens its neighbours, if it wouldn't demonstrate aggressive and coercive behaviour, then perhaps there would be no need for NATO. However, Russia did everything it possibly can to ruin its relationship with most neighbours and gave them every reason to join the military alliance. Now they blame NATO for it?
> Because there are advantages to being neutral. You can't get roped into a war you didn't consent to.
This is just absolutely not true. Baltic States were neutral before the World War II. They were invaded and occupied by Soviet Russia (and briefly by Nazi Germany). Neutrality does not guarantee sovereignty. Moreover, smaller countries which are close to large countries might simply not have numbers to resist a large aggressive neighbour. In such case, military alliances are their only option.
> Because joining NATO requires mutual consent.
Huh? I am talking about a third country. Why should a third country, especially a potential aggressor, have a right to veto the membership? It is a matter of NATO and the applicant country.
> That's my point: this has been a massive miscalculation by Putin. But not all borders are created equal. Geography matters. A border with Ukraine is of more strategic threat than a border with Finland just because most of Ukraine is flat.
Saint Petersburg will be about 100 km from the NATO border. Yet Ukraine is nearly 500 km away from Moscow. It just doesn't add up.
> My sense is they trid to decapitate Ukraine's leadership and pave the way for a pro-Russian regime. This was a massive miscalculation.
We are in agreement on this. Militarily they just didn't even have the right numbers (let alone other spectacular failures), yet Russians still opened wide fronts and went after the capital Kyiv.
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't put a lot of stock in the Russian Imperialism ambitions as being a serious factor in this invasion. I just don't think it adds up. I mean even if Putin was saying this, that doesn't mean a lot. The US, for example, says they're spreading democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq, fro example. I believe it's far more likely that Russia actually wanted (wants?) a buffer between it and NATO. They've been warning of this…
The USSR “occupied” Ukraine for most of the 20th century, aided and abetted by the Holodomor, so there’s no obvious reason they couldn’t again. Russian state TV is awash with pundits who are asserting the Russian empire should be re-created in Ukraine and the Baltics, and that Ukrainians are subhuman. There’s plenty of reason to believe Putin wants his empire.
A lot of people don't realize how much smaller the 21st century great power militaries are in pure manpower terms than the Cold War era, even for the US [2].
Additionally history is a huge factor here. Ukraine came under Soviet control as a consequence of the Russian Empire and this type of imperialism that had been rampant in human history up to this point largely died with World War Two and the onset of the nuclear age. European powers lost their remaining colonies (mostly) in the years following WWII.
The US has quite famously lost every war they've been in since 1945.
Ukraine as part of the USSR was really a vestige of a bygone era combined with a totalitarian government and a way stronger military than, say, exists now in Russia.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Armed_Forces
[2]: https://historyinpieces.com/research/us-military-personnel-1...
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
Genocide? Really?
Yes. ... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to preve…
Indeed, from later in the article:
> While mass killing is not necessary for genocide to have been committed, it has been present in almost all recognized genocides.
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. ... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to preve…
I had never read that definition, and it seems way too broad to be what most people mean - according to this definition, killing 20 Christians on purpose is considered a genocide? Indeed, from later in the article: > While mass killing is not necessary for genocide to have been committed, it has been present in almost all recognized genocides.
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's what 90% of crimeans wanted according to gallup polling. The way I see it the west either fights for empire or we fight for democracy. If we fight for democracy then we respect votes we dont like whose results are independently verified by pollsters we trust. Particularly votes that breach the 90%+ threshold. That would match our principles. In Ukraine neither Kyiv, the west nor Russia fights for democracy thoug…
"What 90% of Crimeans want" does not set the agenda for all of Ukraine.
Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, but I believe referenda should. Ukraine gained its independence that way after all. The gallup polls simply confirmed that the referendum that was run by Russian troops was more or less free and fair. I believe this is a good litmus test of peoples belief in democracy as a matter of principle. Belief in democracy means commitment to voting especially when you dont like the result. It appears a lot of people do no…
A referendum is a far cry from your original suggestion to "officially cede Crimea", though. There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion. Suggesting a sovereign nation cede territory to an oppressive dictator who decided to invade it is antithetical to democracy, as is suggesting that said tyrant should be allowed to dictate which defensive alliance it joins.
The referendum already happened. My original suggestion was "respect the result" - what 90% or crimeans also want according to gallup - a western pollster.
What you want is for their votes to be "corrected" to fall in line with strategic imperialist objectives. This is a position Putin would understand and respect.
>There can be no legitimate referendum while a territory is under invasion.
Actually I believe there can under three conditions:
* The population want the referendum.
* The referendum wouldnt have happened without invasion.
* No vote coercion happened as a result of the invasion.
All three conditions held for Crimea, as well as certain other places. These conditions held for Iraq also, for example.
Once again: if you want to anull the results of a referendum because you dont like the result where there is no uncertainty about a free and fair result then you can only pretend to respect democracy.