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EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

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Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#251

Post by tluyben2 »

adrianN wrote: post #183
tluyben2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won’t happen here but sure, US type of police overreach makes a better soundbite with horribly vague proposals like this. And people should be scared so I guess it’s good; maybe they will protest (probably not though because the children the children).

Stuff quite similar to that happens in Germany[1]. Where is "here"? [1] https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2018/hausdurchsuchungen-bei-ve...

Netherlands. I wonder if it is similar: I saw a few here and they were friendly, no cuffs, they had a list of IPs, made an appointment to collect the drives etc (and that was with enough proof to know for sure they would find what they were looking for). But sure I can see how it escalates but why would they if there are no guns (usually only with drugs at which points they will come with more force)? Shame about Germany but why don’t we hear these things more; they should be on the front page of HN I guess (and not in German or in any language outside english if it awareness needs to be built)? At least the outline. So which dutch articles did I miss I wonder then; I cannot find any of these kind of overreaches.

Also German lawyers seem to be far more trigger happy in a lot of cases than dutch like with copyright and not having your company info on your site etc; seems there is more litigation there like an industry looking for people to ‘sue’. Why aren’t people protesting or are they?

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#252

Post by kmlx »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #157
Freak_NL wrote: post #47

It's scary, because CSAM (child sexual abuse material) is very, very broad, and quite vague in its definition¹. My three year old son stayed with my parents for a week, and he was being taught to swim in their swimming pool. Of course, I get sent pictures and clips of his progress by a proud grandma, and of course, him being a toddler, he felt swimming trunks to be completely optional (and of course, they are at his…

> The automated filter won't care about the context though That's why we have a justice system. Specifically not a common law based one, which is kinds scary per se. People are innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof's on the prosecution. We are talking about EU here, not Sudan.

> Specifically not a common law based one, which is kinds scary per se.

"scary"?

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#253

Post by tomp »

marsRoverDev wrote: post #117
Freak_NL wrote: post #47

It's scary, because CSAM (child sexual abuse material) is very, very broad, and quite vague in its definition¹. My three year old son stayed with my parents for a week, and he was being taught to swim in their swimming pool. Of course, I get sent pictures and clips of his progress by a proud grandma, and of course, him being a toddler, he felt swimming trunks to be completely optional (and of course, they are at his…

My understanding of this technology was it was usually a hash or fingerprint of some form of the material, to be compared against a database of hashes of known-bad material. I doubt EU countries have the infrastructure or budget to run models across everything, no?

I mean, at some point the amount of data & CPU needed to run a CV neural network is less than downloading all existing hashes and comparing them...

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#254

Post by robin_reala »

crvdgc wrote: post #190
dkersten wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that's enough? Maybe homes should be built out of fully transparent materials. Don't want any internal rooms to hide in.

... which is exactly the setting of We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, the novel that inspired 1984 .

If you want to read it (ePub or online) I did a production for SE: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/yevgeny-zamyatin/we/gregor...

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#255

Post by peoplefromibiza »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #238
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are still dozens of families who have yet to be reimbursed for this mistake that has nothing to do with the matter at hand, it's completely OT and, frankly, who cares? It is not EU fault, it's Netherlands's fault. EU doesn't control Netherlands.

Again, you're being pedantic in an attempt to dismiss people. People could interpret the comment in question as "name examples in Europe", as if commenter was trying to imply "European countries aren't as crazy and totalitarian as the US / the remainder of the world". Several commenters gave examples close to home. But somehow the EU, as in European Union, will be the exception, and we can't be skeptical of that. Get…

> Again, you're being pedantic in an attempt to dismiss people.

No, I'm being correct.

Netherland problems that are not caused by EU regulations, are not EU problems.

Deal with that.

> But somehow the EU, as in European Union, will be the exception, and we can't be skeptical of that.

Fale premise.

I never said that EU is gonna be an exception, just that this particular problem happens everywhere, tax fraud are probably the most common case of fraud World wide.

So implying that's proof of some potential problem inside a new EU regulation that has nothing to do with tax fraud is naive at best, but let's get real, you're being not naive, you're simply being biased.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#256

Post by kmlx »

crmd wrote: post #197
zosima wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, as this is not about child sex abuse anyway. The legislators know, from experience, that it's hard to argue against measures to protect children from predators, and so they are free to launch controversial and unacceptable measures. Once in place, it will be extended to other purposes. The same as always.

Quoting Adam Curtis from The Power of Nighmares: > In the past, politicians promised to create a better world. They had different ways of achieving this, but their power and authority came from the optimistic visions they offered their people. Those dreams failed and today people have lost faith in ideologies. Increasingly, politicians are seen simply as managers of public life, but now they have discovered a new rol…

> They had a great 20 year run on the terrorism narrative, but they need a new nightmare, and they’ve apparently settled on child predators.

just a second, we've got the new Russia - Ukraine nightmare.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#257

Post by varispeed »

blibble wrote: post #16
jdrek1 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is they only need to win once. What we really need is an immutable section in the EU constitution that anyone who tries to take away basic privacy rights like this is immediately tried for crimes against humanity and sent to prison for the rest of their lives.

> The problem is they only need to win once. and due to the structure of the EU: once it is has passed it is almost impossible to rescind no matter who you vote for in the future

You can't even vote out people who keep bringing it in in the first place.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#258

Post by peoplefromibiza »

Amezarak wrote: post #230
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your government who wants to control you How exactly? In Italy we had 67 different governments since 1946. What can they do with CSAM data? Government can't blackmail citizen, they can't use CSAM scans for other purposes, they can't even authorize a scan, because that's the justice system prerogative. Do you really believe that in Europe governments are in control of everything like it happens in Russia or in North…

In English and particularly American English, “the government” is understood to encompass the justice system as well as Congress/parliament. People are taking about justice system abuses, not just some MP abusing his power. Law enforcement and courts control the country just as much as the parliament. This isn’t some feature of American government either: in the US local law enforcement is often completely divorced f…

> In English and particularly American English, “the government” is understood to encompass the justice system as well as Congress/parliament

That's only because in USA the justice system depend on the elected president and elected representatives of the State.

But that's not true in Europe.

Law enforcement forces and justice system employees only have to obey to the laws, not to the politicians in power.

They can't be fired at will.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#259

Post by tluyben2 »

Freak_NL wrote: post #168
belter wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To call Dutch Toeslagenaffaire a failure of discriminating algorithms, when the main criteria was: Manually identify innocents based if they were born outside the Netherlands or married to somebody born outside the Netherlands, or if they were born in the Netherlands, had Dutch nationality but grand parents born outside the Netherlands....Is a very strange characterization.

I think you may have misread my comment. The algorithms didn't fail; they did exactly what they were programmed to do. The failure lay in the use of these algorithms; i.e., such algorithms should never have been developed and subsequently used to put people on a blacklist.

Anything automated that has the potential to ruin people’s lives should first be checked by humans when flagged. That’s why this csam thing, if used, will cause crazy amounts of human work, and/or, after first ‘convicting’ a bunch of people and a lot of bad press, will then be toned down to only go after already suspected individuals but now their data can be scanned without a warrant.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#260

Post by rrdharan »

eru wrote: post #242
pc86 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Netherlands seems great as an outsider. I've been to Amsterdam, which was too touristy for me, but still beautiful. And we took a train to Utrecht and the surrounding areas which was great. Even struck up a conversation with a group of (local) software developers on the train. Even with the lockdown protest issues it seems like it should be on the shortlist if you want to move to the EU as an American.

Keep in mind that comp for Dutch software developers is probably an order of magnitude lower than what you can get in the US.

That and it’s a fairly racist place in my experience so don’t bother if you think that would affect you.
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