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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

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Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#251

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

Funny. My former psychiatrist recommended mindfulness to all his patients.

Always thought it was faddish.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a passage by Chesterton where he jokes that many of his contemporaries had simply become bored with Christianity and would happily embrace it again if it came wrapped in the exotic garbs of a far away land.

An interesting anecdote I've experienced on this topic living abroad is how many Buddhists, in an almost exclusively Buddhist nation, have some degree of admiration for Christianity while having some degree of disdain for their own religion or philosophy. I think it's the foreign aspect, but also another one is that when you have limited experience of what a casual Christian (or Buddhist) is like, it creates a falsel…

Which country are you from?

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#253
>According to a new paper, mindfulness may be especially harmful when we have wronged other people. By quelling our feelings of guilt, it seems, the common meditation technique discourages us from making amends for our mistakes.

I'm curious what is meant by mindfulness in this regard. People use the same word (meditation) to refer to many different practices, each with its own intentions and results.

For example in Metta we develop feelings of kindness towards others, in concentration practice we develop concentration (which can be used as a soothing respite from the horrors of life, and from the psychological destabilization of insight practice), and in insight practice we develop insight (in the specific sense that is relevant to becoming enlightened—see Daniel Ingram's excellent book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, available for free online).

If you meditate in a way that suppresses negative emotions instead of confronting them, that seems counterproductive to me—except to the degree that you know you are doing it intentionally to take a break from the hard work of psychological re-integration (shadow work).

My personal aim in meditation is to become lighter, ie. less burdened by feelings of heaviness. I have had a few days and weeks in a state of near-total lightness, and it is wonderful. So my goal is to obtain that state of inner peace more or less permanently.

(As an aside, in such a state I find it effortless to work with complete concentration, am not prone to avoidance, procrastination or addictive behavior, and experience heightened physical and creative energy.)

So, while meditating I will often have to confront some nasty stuff, because until I resolve it, I have to carry it around with me. Sometimes it's about negative beliefs, often rooted in difficult past experiences.

Sometimes it's about guilt. To resolve guilt, I have to make amends. I have to apologize. Then I feel a bit less burdened, as though I've unloaded one of many large stones from my backpack.

Where I ran into trouble was that I put too much pressure on myself to be moral: I tried to live up to the ideal of always doing the right thing, and when I learned that I was unable to do that, that was extremely disturbing to me.

What I failed to realize is that it's a muscle you have to develop. You can't just decide to instantly become perfectly moral, just like you can't decide to be instantly become perfectly fit or fluent in Japanese. Like anything else, your "moral consistency" will improve with time and effort.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#254
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4 hour work week presents an ideology of success by being a shitty person.

Please explain why one would be a shitty person if one tried to start a business that is sustainable on a few hours of work per week.

His business was selling generic "herbal remedies" IIRC. Which is bad/predatory IMO. And going further to meta-hustle that this is salutary enough to recommend to others without any seeming compunction is meta-bad.

(I know it's bad posting something this dismissive in deeply nested comments, but I believe it is relevant information to the discussion which hasn't been mentioned elsewhere. I tried elaborating but the elaborated versions of this comment were more cynical/uncharitable, not less, so I'm keeping it short instead).

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#255
post #62

Can anyone actually say what “mindfulness” really means? I once met a mindfulness coach who was trying to sell me on his business where he comes onsite and coaches corporate clients on mindfulness. The pitch broke down when he couldn’t articulate to me what the hell was really meant by mindfulness.

To me, it seems one more bullshit fad that nobody is going to talk about in 10 years.

No post body was provided.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that Western Christianity has pretty much the same underlying message - you simply can't reach salvation and union with God without starting from right morals. (This might be why Stoicism with its meditative and contemplative traditions, and a similar focus on divinely-inspired "right/moral action" was a key ally of early Christianity.) Islam of course has its own Sufi traditions, the Biblical prophe…

These are universal values that you find across many religions. Religion is a framework to help us find our moral way. But like anything, institutions are run by humans and sometimes go the wrong way, focused on dogma, enrichment or power.

Another widespread opinion is that religion is an structure created to manage and channel human espirituallity for the profit of "those who are able to talk/understand/explain/mediate with/to/from god(s)"

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#257
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still meditate daily, but more in a maintenance manner, the same way a power lifter goes to the gym out of habit, for health, without the goal of setting new PRs. Most of the time, my mind meditates itself automatically. I am very good at deep work, and concentrating on stuff. It is also easy to deal with stress and emotions in my day to day. My life feels like playing a third person video game with the FOV slider…

> My life feels like playing a third person video game with the FOV slider turned to 360 degrees. Every sensation comes discretely where I can see the beginning and end. 1 second is a really long time, enough room to fit 1000s of sensations, bounded only by your speed of perception. That sounds absolutely terrifying to me. [1] All these articles about the downsides of meditation and the above statement just keep push…

For me, the biggest appeal of programming as a career is getting into flow state - becoming so absorbed in what I'm doing that I lose all track of time. Which sounds like the exact opposite of mindfulness. Mindlessness?

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#258

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

It's interesting that Western Christianity has pretty much the same underlying message - you simply can't reach salvation and union with God without starting from right morals. (This might be why Stoicism with its meditative and contemplative traditions, and a similar focus on divinely-inspired "right/moral action" was a key ally of early Christianity.) Islam of course has its own Sufi traditions, the Biblical prophe…

> you simply can't reach salvation and union with God without starting from right morals.

If you are willing to confess your sin and repent for your mistakes with godly sorrow, God will forgive your trespasses.

Even the most handsy of trespassing priests is forgiven.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#259

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

Mindfulness/meditation are tools to attain a level of awareness so that one can recognize what are the things holding one back from experiencing supreme peace and bliss. Without working on virtues like compassion, kindness, truthfulness, humility etc. these tools will only aggrevate one's selfish nature. There are countless examples from ancient India where advanced meditators obtained divine boons due to their severe penance (by meditation on the divine), but ended up using the boon for expansion of their power/wealth at the cost of others, thereby becoming extremely selfish and a problem for the society to sustain properly.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits after meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years straight. Wow! I haven't meditated before. That sounds like a lot of time. Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered you what you expected?

I still meditate daily, but more in a maintenance manner, the same way a power lifter goes to the gym out of habit, for health, without the goal of setting new PRs. Most of the time, my mind meditates itself automatically. I am very good at deep work, and concentrating on stuff. It is also easy to deal with stress and emotions in my day to day. My life feels like playing a third person video game with the FOV slider…

There are four stages of mental stillness as per an awakened meditator mentioned in his book [0]. As per my understanding, you seem to be at stage 3 which is a great achievement.

> On your journey so far, you’ve come off the freeway and you have driven through a suburban road. Now, you’ve hit the countryside road, the third stage of mental stillness. Just like effusive rivers rush into the sea but the sea remains unmoved, the mind of a yogi remains unaffected by the rise and fall of thoughts and emotions. Sea is not always calm, it has tides and it can get tempestuous, but such choppiness is not an everyday affair. A meditator in the third stage can have rough periods but they are far and few in between. From my experience, less than half a percent of meditators get to the third stage of mental stillness. This is not because they are not earnest about it but because wrong meditation does not lead to improvement. When a meditator has gone past the first two stages, they develop an unfailing stillness of mind that reflects through their actions, thoughts and speech. The energy of a stage three meditator has a quieting effect on those around him. The third stage is the countryside road. You can drive for several miles before you come across any other vehicle. Green fields, meadows, pastures, pristine air, blue sky, expansive views, beautiful landscapes, quiet surroundings, no rush – ah, the pleasure of countryside driving! You can go slower or a bit faster, you choose your own pace. The conditions permit you to do that. A meditator who has reached stage three learns to harness and channelize his thoughts. Most of their sessions comprise spans of quiescence and bliss with occasional thoughts emerging here and there, on and off. They don’t get up all relaxed from their meditation, for relaxed they already are, otherwise it would not have been possible to get to this stage. Instead, they get up feeling supercharged, refreshed and alert. A great meditator is always alert. Alertness is not only the reward but an essential ingredient for good meditation. A stage three meditator can easily sit unmoving for three hours.

I'd recommend you also read on Kundalini [1]. You have a great chance of awakening it in short time and experience the supreme level of bliss and peace.

Also, I request – it'd be great if you can join https://os.me/ and share your practice/experience as posts with spiritually inclined seekers out there.

0: https://www.amazon.com/Million-Thoughts-Meditation-Himalayan... 1: https://www.amazon.in/Kundalini-untold-story-Om-Swami/dp/818...

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