Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#251

Post by mort96 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:08 PM UTC

lobochrome wrote: post #241

Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

Now consider that Germany has a huge dependency not only on the supply side to China but also on the demand side for machinery equipment and vehicles. In addition, we have a huge dependency on the US for national security. So we are dependent on Russia for Energy, on China for Manufacturing and industrial demand of our most important industrial sectors and are protected by the US from a National Security point of vie…

Wait what's the contradiction here? Merkel's and Germany's international leadership can be good at the same time as Germany's dependency on Russia and China is problematic from a national security perspective. Those two aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#252

Post by winkeltripel » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:08 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #144

recuter wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old people vote more. Old hippies vote harder. Hippies are impressionable and watched a lot of Hollywood movies like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Syndrome And more recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_(miniseries) Jane Fonda is a sexy grandma who still got it, she stopped the war in Vietnam and got us in shape. With our powers combined, we are Captain Planet? We were elected to lead not to re…

I'm old enough to remember when Chernobyl was on the news, not a fictionalised version. The initial "discard all milk production across Europe" phase lasted a few weeks, but the last restrictions in the UK took 26 years to lift: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cumbria-18299228 (it's also been in the news recently as it was right in the middle of the Russian assault on Kyiv!) The French nuclear mix is currently 58…

My argument for nuclear: the alternative low-carbon base load is grid-scale lithium ion batteries. That tech is ,(AFAIK) 10 years out from reaching both the scale and price point needed. Also note that solar and wind need enormous amounts of land.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#253

Post by tawaypol » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

jonhohle wrote: post #244

Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

During the previous six years, it struck me as completely bizarre that there was any pushback for bringing manufacturing or energy production back locally. It doesn’t have to be nationalist, it’s just adding redundancy in case your trading partner realizes they have over powered leverage. No business wants to concede to a vendor that they are irreplaceable. Edit: Likewise, watching Germany dismantle its nuclear infra…

It's tempting to think that the governments of these states have been infiltrated by their enemies.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#254

Post by throwaway5752 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

Let's be fair: this was a massive, strategic aim of the Russian state. Germany didn't randomly fall into this situation, there has been decades of influence, bribery, and espionage in Germany to develop that dependency. Kids may need to be reminded that Germany has only been reunified for 32 years and Berlin was divided from the USSR controlled East Germany by a physical wall. Russia is is so motivated to expand its borders that they are invading Ukraine.

It can be really tempting to look at this as bad for the US, but this is really just catastrophic for Russia. Decades of investment blown up, with one of the only real non-kinetic weapons that they have.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#255

Post by chasd00 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

zekrioca wrote: post #205

ectopod wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are additional rules for critical national infrastructure. The gas company didn't follow them and this gave the government the legal right to seize the business.

Honest question: Then why did they (Germany) allow Gazprom to own critical infra. in the first place?

This is probably one of those circumstances where law gets so complicated that you are always in violation of something. That way, when the authority needs you in one way or the other the haul you in front of a judge for your "violation of the law" unless you cooperate with their demands.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#256

Post by dathinab » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

diskapital wrote: post #122

beberlei wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. In that case the gas contracts would have been void including its negotiated prices (under currebt market value) and the currency in euro instead of rubbels.

> Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. Is that illegal? I wonder about rule of law. We talk about this as sacrosanct here in the "West". It is funny that when push comes to shove (in my perception at least), we're quick to break the rules to get the outcome we want. When say a 3rd world country does something like this in response to a "Western" multinational's actions (perhaps a controversial…

> Is that illegal?

Under some circumstances if your company operates essential infrastructure, yes. (And always had been, btw.)

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#257

Post by sabertoothed » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

nbadg wrote: post #70

johannes1234321 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That company owned pipelines and storage tanks within Germany, thus controls the flow of gas after reaching Germany.

To expand on this: much of the distribution infrastructure within Germany is owned by Gazprom. For example, there's a very large natural gas storage capacity within Germany, but a significant portion of that is owned by, you guessed it, Gazprom. There's broad consensus that, if all of the storage infrastructure were topped up, Germany would be able to make it through _next_ winter reasonably well, even if Russia stop…

Fellow German here, that is a very good summary. It's sometimes hard to convey the complexity of the situation to foreigners.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#258

Post by cf141q5325 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #206

mkoryak wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious, why is this being downvoted?

Because ultimately it makes a strong assertion that the German government fucked up without supporting it. There’s nothing wrong with saying the government fucked up (though I don’t think it did). But the non sequitur opinion doesn’t add to the discussion.

Its the summary of the commentary. I dont think you can justify not mentioning that bias.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#259

Post by lobochrome » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

mort96 wrote: post #251

lobochrome wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now consider that Germany has a huge dependency not only on the supply side to China but also on the demand side for machinery equipment and vehicles. In addition, we have a huge dependency on the US for national security. So we are dependent on Russia for Energy, on China for Manufacturing and industrial demand of our most important industrial sectors and are protected by the US from a National Security point of vie…

Wait what's the contradiction here? Merkel's and Germany's international leadership can be good at the same time as Germany's dependency on Russia and China is problematic from a national security perspective. Those two aren't mutually exclusive.

Maybe. I guess you can celebrate her for her "international leadership" (what are we exactly celebrating by the way?) and at the same time acknowledge that she completely missed the interests of her constituency.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#260

Post by scns » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

> Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia.

The answer seems to be "one step at a time." And Germany is not unique.

Quite quick actually. The ex chancellor of germany [0] became Nord Streams' [1] Chairman of the Shareholders' Committee (since 2006)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schröder

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream

edit: correction and add link