Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles • Hacker News Board

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#251

Post by runarberg » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #208

ar_lan wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anecdotal/lived experience, to your point: The rich kids in my (public) school were the ones afforded not only tutors, but also just the insight into extra-curriculars. They were the ones who had parents who knew to sign them up for college courses at ~15-16 years old to ensure they could maximize their GPA (5.0 scale, so getting a 5.0 was literally impossible unless you did this). This created a competitive disa…

As far as extra-curricular activities go, like sports, etc., those aren't really the point. The point is for the candidate to demonstrate that they can accomplish significant things other than academics. This can be anything. For me, I didn't do sports, or any school extracurriculars. What I did do was run a small business (paper route), used the money to fund my hotrodding efforts, was an Eagle scout (back in the da…

Intention is irrelevant, the outcome is the same. A parent driving a kid to lacrosse practice every Wednesdays and Fridays shows as much potential to accomplishments as a parent asking their kid to help them with their under the table car mechanic job every weekend. Yet I bet only the former is evaluated as significant. I wonder why that is.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#252

Post by mathattack » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I am all for reinstating the SATs, but it’s a stretch to say that it’s not impacted by socioeconomics. While test prep may have limited value, a lifetime of wealth provides more educational opportunities.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#253

Post by tzs » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #224

caffeine wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

I’m interested to see what happens if schools become truly race blind. I’ve heard that top schools may be >50% Asian. What would that mean for these schools? Would being predominantly Asian mean Harvard isn’t Harvard anymore? Would lopsided racial makeup make these schools less pretigious? Would they produce even more value with the top minds and nothing else?

Caltech is probably the closest to race blind in the US. Their current undergraduate enrollment is 44% Asian American [1].

[1] https://registrar.caltech.edu/records/enrollment-statistics

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#254

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #189

> I understand that this announcement may dismay some readers for whom the tests can be a source of stress. Bluntly, if one can't handle the stress of the SAT, then the stress of exams at a university like MIT is going to be overwhelming. Exam week at Caltech was called "compression", and after the exams was "decompression". The moniker is not a joke.

P.S. Many people dropped out of Caltech because of the stress of exams.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#255

Post by paxys » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:59 PM UTC

caffeine wrote: post #209

rg111 wrote: post #130

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education It all come down to me to what this point touches. When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT. When you…

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

The far right and far left share a surprising amount of common ground in their beliefs. Vaccines are bad. Science is a conspiracy. Big tech must be strictly controlled by government. Speech must be tightly controlled. Individual rights are less important compared to overall societal benefit. We must not be race-blind but rather use race as a critical factor in deciding outcomes.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#256

Post by JJMcJ » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:59 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #98

paulmd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah this is a really hard problem and I don't see a fix outside of standardized testing. Every school is individually incentivized to use every trick - grading out of 5.0, grading loosely, giving a bonus score for AP/IB courses "because of difficulty", etc and teachers are obviously very sympathetic to the future of their students and the impact that being a Grading Nazi could have. And parents are obviously incenti…

Anecdotal, but it seems universities have solved this by figuring out which schools have grade inflation. I went to a gifted school in Chicago that was quite competitive and did not have grade inflation. 20% of the school went to Northwestern every year because they'd accept every B student.

I've met people from elite private day schools. Their education in a different world than 99.99% of public high schools, except maybe a few like Stuyvesant in NYC and Lowell in SF, or the fortunate few where 3/4 of the kids have parents who are doctors or college professors (why not both?).

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#257

Post by sam-2727 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 6:59 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #224

caffeine wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

I’m interested to see what happens if schools become truly race blind. I’ve heard that top schools may be >50% Asian. What would that mean for these schools? Would being predominantly Asian mean Harvard isn’t Harvard anymore? Would lopsided racial makeup make these schools less pretigious? Would they produce even more value with the top minds and nothing else?

You will likely not have to wait long to see, given that the supreme court is most likely going to strike down affirmative action next year

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#258

Post by Ekaros » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #43

Part of the problem I see with standardized testing is that the stakes are so high. Some fraction of the people out there just get nervous or have a bad day. Nothing about these high pressure situations really reflects anything important in the real world. I'm a law student now. In law school, your entire grade usually comes from one 3-4 hour essay exam. Much depends on luck, how well you slept the night before, and…

Still standardized tests are the most fair and least gameable way for admissions. Just because there is some issues, doesn't mean everything else isn't infinitely worse.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#259

Post by tester756 » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

>However, there is very limited evidence that SAT coaching actually increases your SAT score. The NACAC did a study on this and they found that average gains of test-prep students is ~30 points (this was when the SAT was 2400 points).

IIRC SAT's equivalent of Matura in Poland, so I'll be talking about my case

I've been taking advanced math exam and I had some time + some money (like 10% of minimal wage) during winter break and I decided to buy 3 lessons on analytical geometry cuz I've been terrible at geometry, but since that was analytical, then I've seen a chance to get into that

I've attended those 3 lessons, did some exercises and guess what

on official exam there actually was a task from analytical geometry and I managed to do it and receive full points, which basically increased my score by 10 percentage points (that's a lot, I'd say)

Saying that 10% of minimal wage spent was equal to 10 perc. points is naive, but you get the point

What if I were attending those for whole year? 2? 3? hard to say.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#260

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

rg111 wrote: post #130

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education It all come down to me to what this point touches. When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT. When you…

I grew up not terribly well off and I knew somewhere in the back of my mind that college admission depended on extracurriculars and such - I never really thought much about that until I grew up, did relatively well for myself and had my own kids. Then I found out just how much these extracurriculars cost and how much parental guidance is involved in sticking with them. My kids did sports in high school - but the busses don't take kids to and from the school in the off-hours that sport practices take place, so I had to drive them in early and pick them up late. That was an option for me - it wouldn't have been for my dad. The only reason they made the teams in the first place, also, was because they had been doing rec league sports since they were little kids and were already competitive going into high school (we knew plenty of kids who tried out for the teams and didn't make it). We've sunk who knows how much money into private lessons/coaching/one-on-ones, etc. None of this would have been possible for my parents, even if we'd been the type of family that did that sort of thing.