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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#251

Post by worik »

l33t2328 wrote: post #174
jMyles wrote: post #18

Holy shit. This is nauseating. Why do we tolerate the existence of the US state anymore? What's the point of any of this? I _hate_ the feeling of the smacking the back of my head. And they did it, against a plywood wall, by gripping a towel wrapped around his neck and slamming him into it, for two hours at a time, just to 'train' people. Everyone involved - perpetrators and victims - needs therapy and rehabilitation.…

> do we tolerate the existence of the US state anymore This is a ridiculous thing to say. I mean, what are you proposing? The whole world sanction the US?

>> do we tolerate the existence of the US state anymore

> This is a ridiculous thing to say. I mean, what are you proposing? The whole world sanction the US?

That would be a good start

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#252

Post by hammock »

keybored wrote: post #248
hammock wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about parent comment did you think had to do with optics? By my reading it has everything to do with the actual behavior itself, which they call "atrocities."

All of it. I wrote two paragraphs as an interpretation of a two-paragraph comment so I don't know how else to explain it at this point.

Do you believe "moral high ground" functions as a result of optics, not as a result of actual correct moral action?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#254

Post by hguant »

black_puppydog wrote: post #233
teakettle42 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m glad that my US constitutional rights cannot be abrogated by a supranational judicial system.

And that's why the US is increasingly seen as nothing more than a bully on the international stage. And to the point of the root comment, this will fall back on everyone in the US, you included.

I think, while this might have been the perception up until a few weeks ago, the invasion of Ukraine has shown the world what a true "bully" on the international stage looks like. There will always be cloistered individuals who think that anyone who isn't "pure" (for an increasingly variable definition of pure) is evil. That opinion is absolutely fine to have until reality strikes.

The bubble of people who post on HN have been living in that cloister for the last decade or so, not realizing what goes on in the world. At the end of the day, the US has made it a policy to defend and promote democracy across the world, and has actively done so, through it's support of international institutions and protection of democratic norms.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#255

Post by worik »

thereisnospork wrote: post #229
worik wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this risk of being pedantic: the question isn't how we maintain the well-being of other humans, it is how we maintain the well-being of our humans[0] and frankly there's a lot to be said for boot-to-neck diplomacy. That attitude with the associated American power was a complete catastrophe for: * Iraq. * Nicaragua * Panama * Cuba * Afghanistan

A catastrophe for America (Americans) or for the countries listed and their people? Only one of those is relevant.[0] My greater point here is that global politics is an inherently amoral game. By extension a morality-based strategy is inherently sub-optimal. [0]addendum: To be clear there are definitely arguments to be made that some or all of them weren't good for Americans (e.g. loss of global goodwill may have re…

War is not an extension of "diplomacy by other means".

War is a crime.

The war crimes I listed were a catastrophe for everybody connected.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#256

Post by monocasa »

teakettle42 wrote: post #207
monocasa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Additionally, sovereign states are already free to prosecute anyone within their borders. Not without being invaded by the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Prot...

That act refers only to the ICC, which is not a sovereign state and only prosecutes cases that the sovereign states are themselves unwilling to prosecute.

> That act refers only to the ICC, which is not a sovereign state

The ICC only has authority in territories where a sovereign state grants them authority. Hence the act, a threat to invade a sovereign state if that sovereign state follows the legal process they've legally decided (by signing the Rome statute) and prosecute an American citizen

> and only prosecutes cases that the sovereign states are themselves unwilling to prosecute.

Cases that the sovereign state defers to the ICC as their established legal process.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#257

Post by hindsightbias »

teakettle42 wrote: post #139
mywacaday wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to see how the US can claim a moral high ground on anything when it continues to not be a member of the ICC and is even occasionally actively hostile towards individual judges and member countries by threatening sanctions.

I’m glad that my US constitutional rights cannot be abrogated by a supranational judicial system.

But they can still torture according to Scalia. It wouldn't violate the 8th Amendment unless you have been found guilty. Then it would be cruel punishment.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#258

Post by dqpb »

anon_2022 wrote: post #245

Making the post as anon. I fully support the CIA to use torture even on US Citizens. If you're caught planning a terror attack or something similar that could cause mass loss of life, torture is a reasonable last resort to extract information from a suspect

Let’s say you confiscate a computer. What do you gain by bashing it against a wall?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#259

Post by MomoXenosaga »

throwawaycities wrote: post #214
teakettle42 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m glad that my US constitutional rights cannot be abrogated by a supranational judicial system.

I used to hear this all the time in law school, something to the effect that the US should never relinquish its sovereignty by signing the Rome Statute and subject itself to the International Criminal Court. This was at the height of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the associated allegations of POW torture and abuse (e.g. Abu Ghraib, waterboarding, guantanamo bay, etc…). How ironic 20 years later the very sa…

If the US joined the ICC they would have the right to send US judges to the Hague. It wouldn't be a "foreign court".

But I think the real issue is that the CIA doesn't want oversight from anyone foreign or domestic.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#260

Post by cwkoss »

sneak wrote: post #250
cwkoss wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the clever path to fixing an unaccountable branch of government who keeps secrets from the people meant to oversee it to cover up their egregious acts? They are effectively a rogue criminal organization with the power of state protection at this point. Making an example of the criminal acts we do have knowledge of seems the only effective recourse short of dismantling the CIA entirely.

I think that literally the only way to dismantle the CIA and other blatantly and obviously criminal portions of the US government without using violence is to spread wide the fact that they are a portion of the government that operates entirely outside of the rule of law, and that we can't be said to actually have the rule of law/democracy/freedom/etc if it doesn't apply equally to everyone. If enough people shout ab…

That's a fair perspective, and one I've previously held. However my view of social attitudes is that they almost always follow a bell curve: exposure to extreme positions are how moderates reflect on and revise the status quo. The long tail must move before the centroid can shift.

10% of the population needs to call for the execution of all torturers in the CIA before the zeitgeist's illusion of justice painted over black ops can be dismantled. If radicals only advocated for "CIA is bad and needs to be reigned in" that doesn't create enough cognitive dissonance for the general public to reflect on their attitudes and actually effect change.

Radicals advocating for the superlative solution create cover for moderates to take compromise action.

I think it would be good for society if CIA torturers would be executed, but I'd be shocked if the moderate politicians in power had the courage to actually do so.

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