We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption • Hacker News Board

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#251

Post by softwarebeware » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #4

My take on the productivity paradox is software is a form of literacy . We have put a pen and paper onto every desktop and every pocket but almost no-one can read or write. Edit: And those that can find that only a tiny fraction of the fold is written down (accessible through the virtual cyber world). Amazon's secret to success was forcing every service to live behind a "public" API.

I think you’re on to something there. Most software available today merely does what free software already does, but with specific marketing to make it seem like something people need. For example, all of the below software categories are easily handled with either the software bundled with your operating system or a simple open source download:

- budgeting

- to do / productivity

- book / music / video game / etc. media cataloging

- project planning

- event planning

- file storage

- etc

When someone remarked once that most SaaS products are a front end to a spreadsheet, I just thought, “they’re not wrong.”

Now if people had computer literacy they wouldn’t pay $20 a month for a service their computer already does.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#252

Post by Day1 » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #225

version_five wrote: post #171

Where I was during uber's ascent, uber's defining value proposition was circumventing the artificial monopoly created by the taxi medallion system. This "disruption" was actually great, it shook up an industry that needed shaking up (ironically I now use cabs because they have become better than uber where I am. This would not be the case if uber never existed). But even if it did some good "disrupting", I think the…

What’s missed in these discussions is these regulations had a point to them. It’s obvious Uber driving around without passengers increases congestion. Really look at AirBnb, Bird, etc and they all offload externalities from the company and it’s customers to everyone around them. When the basic building model is to break the law, chances are the law had a point and people are going to want a return to normal eventuall…

No post body was provided.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#253

Post by spacebanana7 » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

cuteboy19 wrote: post #42

Barrin92 wrote: post #25

One of the most interesting insights to me about this dynamic of profitless, innovation lacking platforms came from reading a Varoufakis piece. To him the reason platforms exist as they do right now is because they constitute a fundamental shift away from market capitalism to what he calls techo-feudalism. Instead of thinking of companies like Uber as selling software and paying wage labour to generate profit, it mak…

The 3rd paragraph is incongruous with the 4th paragraph. If they are not generating profits then how come we accuse them of extracting rent and "maintaining techno-peasants"? The major characteristic of feudalism was that power centers deteriorated and power was distributed to local lords insted of central kings. So how is having a single gigantic company more like feudalism? Lastly, why come up with such convoluted…

> If they are not generating profits then how come we accuse them of extracting rent

Just as it was possible for a medieval king to have terrible finances by spending more on war/security than he collected in rent from Barons, a tech company can lose lots of money by spending more on customer acquisition/platform maintenance than collected in rent from suppliers.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#254

Post by Retric » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #247

Retric wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s missed in these discussions is these regulations had a point to them. It’s obvious Uber driving around without passengers increases congestion. Really look at AirBnb, Bird, etc and they all offload externalities from the company and it’s customers to everyone around them. When the basic building model is to break the law, chances are the law had a point and people are going to want a return to normal eventuall…

> people are going to want a return to normal eventually. Except now airbnb is accepted by city regulations and cities give out permits and make occupancy dollars. Same with uber.

Regulators are ultimately subordinate to the laws and thus the voters. That process is just really slow.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#255

Post by adamqureshi » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

autotech wrote: post #248

adamqureshi wrote: post #233

Back in the day my cousin was driving yellow cab in NYC. He would work 6/7 days a week 12 hour shifts. He eventually took our a mortgage ( loan) to buy a yellow cab medallion. Cost was like $1M. And BAM! uber came on the scene and the value for his medallion DROPPED. X 10k yellow cab drivers and those who bought medallions with a ridiculous loan. What did uBER do? that was so innovating? they simply put guys like my…

Indeed, one of the things Uber disrupted was many lifelong taxi owner-operator’s retirement plans. An NYC taxi medallion was a valuable asset. It was a promise for exclusive market access. Giant $1M loans were taken out to pay for this privilege. NYC just turned around and gave it all away to Uber. When the value of NYC taxi medallions fell, while Uber was heavily subsidizing fares, small business owners were going b…

Showtime made a show about uber" Super Pumped" on showtime rigth now. Apple made a movie about We Work ( Adam neuman). HULU made a show about Elizabeth Holms. "Theranos". Nobody made a movie about yellow taxi cab drivers who lost it all when their medallions went to the SH*T house after uBER decimation to the yellow cab medallion industry in NYC.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#256

Post by Veelox » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

skohan wrote: post #191

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #178

The problem is incumbents get lazy and start profit-seeking. Competition is the only way we know to have a chance of fighting it. The taxi industry got away with ripping off customers and having terrible service for ages. In my country they would regularly overcharge or take longer routes. Or you call and they decide not to come, or you walk around waving your hands frantically at a taxi hoping they stop. As a touris…

So I agree with some of your points: I.e. I think people would generally agree the user experience of Uber is an improvement over taxis even if the labour conditions are a regression. The problem I see is that even the potential for disruption is consolidated in fewer and fewer hands. With IP law the way it is, Google and Apple acting as gatekeepers to mobile ecosystems, Amazon owning e-commerce and squeezing or comp…

> I think people would generally agree the user experience of Uber is an improvement over taxis even if the labour conditions are a regression.

I am going to make my point bluntly. Do you think the people driving for Uber are dumb? Every time I see this kind of argument I feel like it removes any agency from the gig workers. The implication is "Uber's drivers don't understand they are getting screwed. We need to change the rules of the game so Uber stops screwing drivers."

I have never seen a good argument for how Uber is exploitive that doesn't assume the drivers are to dumb to realize they are being exploited.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#257

Post by spacebanana7 » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #25

One of the most interesting insights to me about this dynamic of profitless, innovation lacking platforms came from reading a Varoufakis piece. To him the reason platforms exist as they do right now is because they constitute a fundamental shift away from market capitalism to what he calls techo-feudalism. Instead of thinking of companies like Uber as selling software and paying wage labour to generate profit, it mak…

I think this phenomenon is better described as indirect payment for platform services.

You could argue similar structures exist outside of tech in Walmart’s supplier relationships or Standard Oil’s railroad arrangements.

Also, the methods used by these companies to “claim territory” often does seem to create innovation. The gmail web app, WhatsApp etc create a lot of customer value despite being used for territory expansion rather the collection of direct revenue.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#258

Post by bagacrap » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

belval wrote: post #210

Ambolia wrote: post #205

Uber if anything makes taxis less productive and efficient, a big taxi company can take care car repairs in a very efficient way. The magic of Uber is taking those hidden costs and pushing them on the drivers, now the cars get fixed in a much less efficient way, but the ones taking the risk are the drivers, so Uber wins overall.

I don't like Uber, but it became popular because of convenience, not because of costs. Pre-Uber/Lift in my city you'd have taxi companies that were operating like a cartel and giving a shitty service. Drivers were borderline rude. You had to call a dispatcher that was also usually rude and then wait 20 mins for a cab to show up. Uber changed that process for the best by actually allowing me to get a taxi from an app…

Uber was undeniably a lot cheaper than a taxi for me in 2013. I don't use Uber much any more but I assume the same is true. They were able to undercut not just due to shafting the drivers but also all the VC money pouring in. The cost certainly did help with the popularity. It shifted the calculus from "eh, I'll drive and park" (at the airport or other destination) to "let's just get a ride" in a huge number of cases. So for me, it did not just displace taxi rides, it created new demand.

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#259

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:19 PM UTC

Life pretty comfortable. Most of the stuff that generates discomfort is stuff that a company/individual likely can't change. Innovation dies Negaunee we're fat and happy and there aren't any problems that feasibly solvable.

For example, taxes. We already have tax software. It's still a pain. If we want to fix it, we have to fix the underlying government system of laws and regulation.

Another one is healthcare. There is innovation there, but again the laws and regulations dictate or allow a lot of the negative behavior

Re: We must return to an economy fueled by innovation, rather than disruption

#260

Post by satellite2 » Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

Veelox wrote: post #256

skohan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I agree with some of your points: I.e. I think people would generally agree the user experience of Uber is an improvement over taxis even if the labour conditions are a regression. The problem I see is that even the potential for disruption is consolidated in fewer and fewer hands. With IP law the way it is, Google and Apple acting as gatekeepers to mobile ecosystems, Amazon owning e-commerce and squeezing or comp…

> I think people would generally agree the user experience of Uber is an improvement over taxis even if the labour conditions are a regression. I am going to make my point bluntly. Do you think the people driving for Uber are dumb? Every time I see this kind of argument I feel like it removes any agency from the gig workers. The implication is "Uber's drivers don't understand they are getting screwed. We need to chan…

Not really no. Typically in the US try comparing health care services, since they all have different coverage, pricing model, duration etc... unless you are an economist with time and a robust model you can't say which is the best / cheapest. That's why the only way to give consumers a fighting chance is to actually create a market by forcing them to flatten their offerings.

Similarly in my country (I cannot say for other places) Uber driver's cash on hand is relatively good. But they are independent contractors so don't get a pension and no contribution for disability/maternity insurance. So it's hard for the drivers to actually price those externalities.

So no, drivers are not dumb, when markets are not clearly defined, companies are very good at making it hard to compare their offers with those of the competitors.