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Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

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Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#251

Post by glandium »

pech0rin wrote: post #111
CydeWeys wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18 is awfully old to start learning something for the first time. Imagine saying the same thing about math, reading, or history. It's harder to pick things up when you're older, and it leaves fewer people capable of it. See also: learning human languages.

This is absolutely false. I became fluent in Japanese in my 30s. Learned guitar in my late 20s. This is so wrong. You can continue learning until you are dead.

(edit: I started learning Japanese at 18. I'd say) I became fluent in Japanese in my late 20s. I'm close to 44. My wife is Japanese. I live in Japan. Japanese middle-schoolers (edit: ok, maybe high-schoolers) are more fluent than I am.

GP is not saying you can't learn. GP is saying you're unlikely to be more skilled than those who started earlier. Also, past a certain age, there's a more limited amount of time you can dedicate to learning new stuff.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#252

Post by schnitzelstoat »

mslate wrote: post #166
vparikh wrote: post #128

All it takes is two things: 1. The investor bubble to bust - and I think this will happen due to the soon to be rising interest rates making capital much more difficult too secure. 2. One of the big employers dumps devs into the market - say one of the FAANG companies has a sever downturn and lays of thousands of devs. Don't think it can happen - Facebook and Google are just a few regulations away from mass lay offs…

#2 already happened in 2020 with Uber & Lyft significantly cutting their engineering workforce (but not fully like a bankruptcy might entail). I remember feeling concern about the local SF job market at the time, it was totally unfounded. The demand for software engineers that can ship product is very deep. FAANG engineers might not like the non-FAANG offers they might get at smaller firms, but they are solid jobs &…

Isn't 70 y/o pretty old to retire by previous standards?

The concern I have is if anywhere is actually going to hire a 65 y/o programmer that can't afford to retire.

Obviously, age discrimination is illegal but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#253

Post by moritonal »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #223
edanm wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. I highly disagree with this. For some reason, many devs seem to think they are somehow better than everyone else, that they are the most important part of any team, that no on besides them can have any insight on timelines, or budget, on which features are or aren't important. News flash - all of the above is…

I think we're definitely better at non-developers at software development. Yet we literally have outside people dictating to us when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency. This is a lot different from than "no on besides them can have any insight on timelines, or budget, on which features are or aren't important.". I definitely value the input of other profess…

Perspective might be key here. "Yet we literally have outside people dictating to _you_ when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency."

You work in a place where this happens. You could not.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#255

Post by adriancr »

gregoriol wrote: post #254

Programmers will end like most factory workers: there is no reason most of the current programming can't be automated at some point.

Programming is mostly r&d and i dont hear people trying to automate researchers, rather enhance what they can do.

I'd argue if a programming position can be automated, that position wasn't needed in the first place and someone can make better infrastructure that doesnt require it in the first place. But to build that infrastructure you do need competent programmers, and if you dont a competitor will, and eventually replace you.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#256

Post by hooby »

dystroy wrote: post #233
hooby wrote: post #212

Programmers are increasingly needed for *everything*. I mean, we've entered an age, where a farmer can't milk their cows, if the software of the milking robot has a hitch - can't plow their fields, when the gps-software that drives the tractor isn't working. Apart from that, programming is becoming every other job - as far as domain knowledge is concerned. I've personally experienced (multiple times!) professional ac…

For taxi drivers, the most important change was already done and it took decades: it wasn't replacing them with self driving vehicles. It was replacing very competent drivers having a perfect knowledge of the town and of the optimal paths with drivers with absolutely no competence needed. We don't have software driven vehicles, we have software driven humans.

Sounds quite similar to my accountants-example, doesn't it?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#257

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

durnygbur wrote: post #220

As a web/fullstack with over 10 years of experience and based in EU, I don't have this impression at all. Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%. It's better for me to basically seat idle and work on some personal projects.

>Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%.

Let me guess, France/Austria/Belgium?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#258

Post by lelanthran »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this.

This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development.

I mentioned how stand-ups work briefly, and that it might not be a bad idea to adopt for (for example) an accounting department to keep things on task.

The response was both extreme and universal: How the hell do you all accept being micromanaged to such a degree? Don't any of you have any dignity?

Every single one of them (all professionals, like I said) were adamant that they would leave any position that managed them no better than a burger-flipper.

No lawyer, accountant, doctor, engineer, scientist or other professional stands up each day to report *to their peers* on their progress.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#259

Post by conradfr »

jokoon wrote: post #247

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have been chronically unemployed and lack experience, or because I'm too selective with the jobs I apply on (I can't bear php or js stuff like angular), or because I live in france or in the wrong city. I may have an atypical profile. Programming has not been very g…

In what city do you live and what languages are you seeking?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#260

Post by bruce343434 »

durnygbur wrote: post #220

As a web/fullstack with over 10 years of experience and based in EU, I don't have this impression at all. Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%. It's better for me to basically seat idle and work on some personal projects.

boohoo, you only earn 70-80k EUR bruto. And you get to live in Europe as well?? You realize the average bruto salary in (west) Europe is around 20-30K EUR? Even lower in east Europe? You are one of the luckiest, most privileged people alive. Yes, there's always a bigger fish/higher salary. But christ, get some perspective.
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