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The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

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Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#251

Post by 8note »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #164
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how that applies to a well documented history of voter suppression? Yes, in theory, you could have a color blind system and some random change could have a negative impact on some group randomly. That's not what happened in reality though. "In theory, I might not have killed him" isn't a great argument for someone found standing over a body with a knife, you're generally looking for something a bit…

Similarly, I don't see how "a well documented history of voter suppression" applies to increasing election security. I don't see that phrase in your first link, but I found it here: https://www.studioatao.org/post/understanding-the-u-s-govern... . From there I found a link to the evil Brian Kemp who dared to purge voter rolls! https://newrepublic.com/article/151858/americas-relentless-s... Many believe that one of th…

> Many believe that one of the greatest opportunities for fraud come

And where is the abuse that fuels this belief? What are the numbers?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#252

Post by 8note »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #164
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how that applies to a well documented history of voter suppression? Yes, in theory, you could have a color blind system and some random change could have a negative impact on some group randomly. That's not what happened in reality though. "In theory, I might not have killed him" isn't a great argument for someone found standing over a body with a knife, you're generally looking for something a bit…

Similarly, I don't see how "a well documented history of voter suppression" applies to increasing election security. I don't see that phrase in your first link, but I found it here: https://www.studioatao.org/post/understanding-the-u-s-govern... . From there I found a link to the evil Brian Kemp who dared to purge voter rolls! https://newrepublic.com/article/151858/americas-relentless-s... Many believe that one of th…

> Many believe that one of the greatest opportunities for fraud come

And where is the abuse that fuels this belief? What are the numbers?

And more importantly, how many people does doing so prevent from voting, which is just as fraudulent as allowing an extra vote?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#253

Post by civilized »

mint2 wrote: post #228
civilized wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to help as you wish, but describe the problem accurately. And understand that the people you are trying to help may resist you because you are interfering in their choices. Some people passionately want to keep drugs like fentanyl out of the country. Others think it's impractical and efforts have done more harm than good. Still others say "hand them a clean needle". Messing with the choices people make that you t…

I think you meant: > Messing with the choices people make that scientists, sociologists, and 9 out of 10 dentists think are bad for them and society as a whole isn't easy. I guess that my more appropriate and more relevant corrected version of the statement didnt sound like it supported the point so the original was phrased as if it’s my own non expert opinion that smoking causes cancer. fentanyl? Are you saying that…

You seem to think I'm making every possible point but the one I'm actually making.

I'm not saying it's good for people to have fentanyl or misinformation.

I'm not saying personal choices are above criticism or regulation.

I'm just saying it's hard. You're going to be intruding into how people run their lives. Many of them won't like it.

My personal take is that social media can be awfully like a drug, and we're probably going to need detox programs and support groups. Misinformation is just one small aspect of how today's social media degrades the human mind and spirit.

On the other hand, social media isn't heroin, it's human interaction. Regulating a material thing with no legitimate uses is a lot more straightforward.

And to be honest, I am very skeptical of central authorities arbitrating what is truth. Historically this is a cure worse than the disease.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#254

Post by 8note »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #231
dustyleary wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yes, it's incredibly partisan for you to claim that republicans are trying to "reduce democracy." Is it, though? My belief is that voter fraud is basically a non-issue, that it doesn't really happen very much at all, and that it is a bogus argument put forth by the Republicans to give an excuse for why they are so consistently fighting to not allow people to vote. Google search "does voter fraud really happen",…

I'm not going to take the time to go through all your links, so I just picked one I thought was interesting: McConnell's "naked power grab" comment. Here is the view from the other side: https://www.businessinsider.com/mcconnell-democratic-bill-el... From what I read, McConnell thinks most federal workers vote democrat. This makes sense in that if you work for the government you are probably pro-big-government. If th…

Why does how they're going to vote or who they campaign for matter? The federal government respects citizens' free speech.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#255

Post by 8note »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #215
standardUser wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must not follow these issues closely, because there are many examples of states picking and choosing which IDs "count", with student IDs usually not counting under many Republican-crafted laws, but other IDs, such as gun licenses, being permitted. Further examples include reducing the hours/days of the offices that issue IDs and shrinking voter registration windows. Roughly 11% of Americans don't have a valid gov…

So I googled for 2 minutes ( actually I used a different search engine because I don't trust google much for politics anymore), and I found this: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-a-gun-license-accepted-as-a-vot... "Your university I.D. was issued by a university compared to a government issued one. The license to carry contains your verified address, dob and all that. What does your University one have? The LTC required…

The government controls who it wants to grant these licenses to, so these restrictions mean you need the governments permission to vote, when it's your right to vote.

Why not get better integration with universities so it is a valid id?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#256

Post by 8note »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #193
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone proposing it that doesn't also legislate for every voter to be issued with one is being selective. > The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread

Yes, they are selecting for citizens with a valid ID. That's the point! And, no, the law doesn't need to ensure every citizen gets a voting ID. How would one even do that? The voter rolls are out of date and don't contain every citizen. Also, how would you ensure the right IDs get to the right people? You, as a citizen, do not have an inherent right to vote without having the ability to prove you are who you claim to…

If you're worried about getting the ids in the right hands, why not delegate to the Democrat party? The republicans set the requirements and the Democrats get the budget to make sure "the right people" meet them?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#257

Post by [deleted] »

civilized wrote: post #83
softwarebeware wrote: post #46

IMO the author displays confirmation bias in the post. He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. If you're deluged with carefully chosen factual information, that's more convincing than outright lies. And this is often the situation we are in more often than not these days. Along with an inability to spot logical fallac…

> He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. This is a baffling claim. Why on earth would you believe that people now have a lower ability to seek out contradicting points of view?

[deleted]

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#258

Post by 8note »

civilized wrote: post #83
softwarebeware wrote: post #46

IMO the author displays confirmation bias in the post. He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. If you're deluged with carefully chosen factual information, that's more convincing than outright lies. And this is often the situation we are in more often than not these days. Along with an inability to spot logical fallac…

> He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. This is a baffling claim. Why on earth would you believe that people now have a lower ability to seek out contradicting points of view?

Currently, there is a middleman that's looking to present you with "engaging" information wherever you look. There is so much information available that you always need a sorting mechanism

Engaging being straw man arguments to dunk on, with people dunking on them

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#259

Post by Rury »

svachalek wrote: post #94
civilized wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. This is a baffling claim. Why on earth would you believe that people now have a lower ability to seek out contradicting points of view?

Which profit driven advertising based search engine or newsfeed is built around delivering contradicting points of view?

Amusingly, I fail to see how such an engine would resolve the problem. Groups of people would just choose the point of view they liked, and label the other as misinformation and... we're back to the original topic.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#260

Post by lmm »

SquareWheel wrote: post #52
lmm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Earth is a flat disc. > Is this misinformation, wrongthink, or both? You missed the fourth option: it's neither. No-one would call it misinformation or wrongthink; rather it's false, or a lie if you're feeling judgemental. I think the person you replied to has made a good point.

What if I show you a heavily biased paper in a quack journal with impressive-looking graphs that shows the earth is a flat disc? Is this misinformation? Most people will not have the experience to discern things like p-hacking and massaged numbers. Having experts call these things out as misinformation seems quite useful to me.

> What if I show you a heavily biased paper in a quack journal with impressive-looking graphs that shows the earth is a flat disc? Is this misinformation?

Maybe. I've not heard people calling "misinformation" in cases like that though.

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