More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#251

Post by lvl100 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

I am convinced college is more or less priced off of prestigious private high schools where the parents simply pay cash. For the wealthy it is acceptable to pay 60-70K per year for their kids. Clearly this represents the wealth gap in this country.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#252

Post by megaman821 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #141

epistasis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard tales of people with interest rates of 7%+ on student loans, and the official rates are not incredibly low either: https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/interest-r... Any loan that is charging 6.28% interest and also cant be discharged by bankruptcy is just usury with current interest rates.

> Any loan that is charging 6.28% interest and also cant be discharged by bankruptcy The interest rates are high because so few loans can be discharged by bankruptcy. You can refinance your mortgage with anyone. Far few companies will refinance your student loans. Meanwhile, it makes prefect sense that bankruptcy cannot discharge student loans. Otherwise, every single student would have crappy credit from 21-28 and n…

They should be dischargable after 8-10 years. If you are willing to declare 8 years after graduating, you should be able to get your debt restructured or forgiven.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#253

Post by DebtDeflation » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

It's going to the facilities and the staff needed to support them.

When I was an undergrad in the mid 1990s, the dorms were square rooms with cinderblock walls, concrete floors, metal frame beds, and a simple desk, the cafeteria was like an oversized high school cafeteria, and the gym was a basic weight room. A couple of years ago I received a brochure from my alma mater asking for donations and showing the modernized campus - the dorms were now luxury apartments, the cafeteria was a gourmet eatery, and the gym looked like a Lifetime.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#254

Post by monkeynotes » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #93

monkeynotes wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition there is COVID which means a lot of online learning and none of the college social experience. I know of a coop on my team is considering pausing finishing his degree because he hates online learning and does not feel like he's getting the education he paid for.

What's the alternative? Wait for this to "blow over"? We've been waiting for two years now. Maybe omicron will be it. Or maybe not. We simply don't know. One thing we do know from past experience is those opting-out of college or putting their degree on "pause" rarely return to complete their degree. You simply reach a point where you're focusing on your career, maybe start a family, and so forth and the next thing y…

I think for him pausing and perhaps just having a career is the best of a bad situation. His education doesn't work for him as is.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#255

Post by epistasis » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #216

epistasis wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "makes perfect sense" solution to college is usury, we have serious problems with our higher education system. It's time to start funding these schools adequately so that they do not immiserate everyone except those with wealthy parents. It's the opposite of a meritocracy.

Schools will increase their expenses and tuition to fill loan capacity plus public funding, as they've already been doing.

I'm not sure if the spending or funding side is bigger issue, and surely this depends somewhat on the school, but both must be brought in line rather than forcing it onto our future workers.

The one thing we can't do is stop funding because we have pre-decided that it won't lower tuition. It's easy to attach strings to money, let's do that.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#256

Post by giaour » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

Some percentage of tuition dollars are effectively cross subsidizing other students (e.g., masters candidates subsidize PhD students, wealthier undergraduates subsidize other undergraduates receiving institutional grants or discounts, etc.), but the biggest factor in private education has to be the increase in administrative staff and facilities.

The one place is almost certainly not going its faculty salaries. The industry's shift to adjuncts has been great for university endowments but terrible for those who got their PhD in the last couple decades

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#257

Post by paulpauper » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

bart_spoon wrote: post #100

sylens wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's quite clearly this. Millennials have been out there for nearly a decade yelling on social media about how ridiculous their student loans are. Kids on the precipice of college have started paying attention. Combine that with the restrictions for Covid, and you have a lot of kids who don't think that taking on tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt is worth it for some Zoom classe…

Plus the amount and quality of alternative learning resources is very high, at least in some fields. I know coding bootcamps get a bad rep, often justified, but at the same time my buddy went to college for a degree in HR and I went for STEM. He ended up hating HR, did a 9 week boot camp, managed to get a job, and after a few years of experience is in roughly the same place as me and is thriving. It took him a little…

It's a single anecdote, but between online resources and alternative training programs, it seems harder to justify spending tens of thousands of dollars on college.

The evidence suggests that bootcamp grads struggle at finding good jobs, and also bootcamps charge a lot up-front, whereas collages have more aid and other programs to defer payment.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#258

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

marcellus23 wrote: post #238

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why they would be demonized Because they're in large part neither functional nor artistic. Both force one to think in novel ways. The certification-for-its-own-sake majors do not. There are reams of low-grade degrees in which the majority of teaching is in memorization, not mastering new ways to think. That doesn't advance society, particularly when it burdens young people with debt.

> Both force one to think in novel ways. The certification-for-its-own-sake majors do not. What exactly do you think an English major is like? Humanities majors absolutely force you to think in new ways, and I'd argue much more so than engineering or CS majors.

> What exactly do you think an English major is like? Humanities majors absolutely force you to think in new ways

I agree, and was on the edge in not including that major, but did so because there are English majors and there are undergrads who got a degree in English. At a lot of tier 2 public universities (e.g. the one I went to), the latter dominate. A student showing initiative can get a top-notch liberal arts education. But the average student won't. They'll skim, read the SparkNotes and pass through unchanged because the point isn't studying literature but getting a diploma.

Students who want to learn anything should be given the opportunity. I strongly believe that. But more people with degrees doesn't make for a better-educated population. And driving money into encouraging that doesn't necessarily advance society either.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#259

Post by ren_engineer » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #108

This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest of the world has realized that society requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing , right? America is still stuck in this alternate universe where it's a great privilege to have the opportunity to learn, which is of course true to some extent, but they really put it on a pedestal there. Com…

>Much of the rest of the world has realized that society requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing, right?

the number of STEM degrees in the US has basically been flat for decades, majority of degrees being handed out are effectively useless in terms of boosting productivity and "advancement". Go around and ask people with college degrees how often they actually use them, probably 90% admit it was worthless, I know mine was. Luckily I had academic scholarships so I didn't have any debt

kids are effectively being propagandized and brainwashed into chasing worthless credentials while racking up debt that will impact their lives for years. The amount of emotional manipulation around college is disgusting

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#260

Post by kd913 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Their universal concern is the cost. I have a senior in high school right now and although I think you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it) that the…

I feel the key bit here is to look at the outcome of the education. He is right to be worried about a quarter-million dollar tuition bill, and there is absolutely no point in doing so for a path with poor job prospects.

There are some paths where the university choice does matter, others that don't.

Going into the trades is not a bad idea I think, but again it needs to be a conscious decision for the pros and the cons.

I think the key bit is do some research, try and get a week long internship in the job that he is looking for and/or try to speak with seniors/grads.