Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#251

Post by MichaelZuo » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

ftrobro wrote: post #169

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Puts a target on the back of anyone that earns a lot of money but doesn't live in a high security bunker" I find this unconvincing - firstly, most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods. Secondly, you don't need to know someone's salary to tell apart a rich neighbourhood or house from a poor one. Thirdly, high salary does not mean you have anything to steal, my friend earns a lot but all him money is in mortgage, stoc…

> most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods That's kind of my point. Let's say you live in a poor neighborhood but do some stock trading and suddenly make a large profit. That will be shown in public records, it's not just salaries that are public. You now have a target on your back. Criminals will not come to your house looking for a laptop, they will come looking for you, putting a gun to your head telling you to t…

Your example assumes that crime (including up to ransom and kidnapping!) in poor neighbourhoods goes unpunished. If that’s the case there are more fundamental things to worry about than salary data…

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#252

Post by GhettoComputers » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #214

GhettoComputers wrote: post #112

Monopolies hate competition, they’re terrified of better products, and a free open source version is better than their squandered tax program. Why are the defending their own poor quality program? Do they want Sweden to fail?

The only reason they're defending their shit is prestige at this point. The system was originally procured by city administrators who had way too little understanding and experience dealing with IT projects. The contract was awarded to one of the big consultant behemoths who specialize in winning government contracts and executing them shoddily. Parents hate it, because it is shit. Anyone in the industry with a brain…

How can there be defense against this? The US does this but the military contracts aren't executed shoddily, although it seems that many others are.

Why would they make such a crappy program, don't they have any incentive to have a good reputation or to get more contracts? If it sucks and their history sucks, why would anyone want to hire them?

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#253

Post by wonderwonder » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

Nullabillity wrote: post #250

wonderwonder wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parents already had access to the app, just in the form of a folder you were sent home with that had everything printed out. This is just a digitized version, its not the 2nd coming of the Gestapo. Also you need to think about this from the perspective of the parents, having kids in school mean you have to do things, you can either be informed ahead of time and do them in a leisurely manner or you can find out l…

> Your parents already had access to the app, just in the form of a folder you were sent home with that had everything printed out. Where are you from? In the 7 different (pre-university) schools I went to in Sweden, none of them had paper folders, and only one had a digital platform like this. And that one was only for teachers and students, parents didn't have access.

I'm in the US, and my kids are in elementary school, so mileage may vary.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#254

Post by infogulch » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

titusjohnson wrote: post #233

infogulch wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using SPA vs SSR as the sole factor in determining "published" status rings hollow for me, because it completely excludes any analysis based on intent, and intent usually matters in law! (Though I admit I'm not familiar in this case and this country.) Also it's easy to poke holes: does this mean that scraping data from html is always hacking, regardless of the expressed intent? (See recent Missouri case for what that…

Publication intent is trivial to verify. Q) Are you able to retrieve a document using the credentials issued to you by the API? A) Yes: Then you're authorized to view it. No: You're not authorized to view it. An API is the encoding of business rules around data access and modification. If your API is allowing access that you don't intend a user to have, fix your authorizations.

See I like this argument better because it has nothing to do with being an API or HTML and everything to do with access authorization. It doesn't make sense for the government to have the power to control how the data the parents are authorized to view is displayed, or what tool they use to display it.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#255

Post by rightbyte » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #75

Loughla wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely do not see a downside of publicly available salary information. What am I missing and/or not thinking about?

In general I think it would be a good thing as well, but there are some downsides that come to mind. For example, seeking new employment your new employer would be able to see your previous salary. That means people who start out in the lower wage markets could have a much harder time improving their salaries.

On the other hand you can see your colleagues salary.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#256

Post by beyondzero » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #8

> In some cases, people’s personal information could be accessed from Google searches. SEO providers should take a note here. > It warned parents to stop using the app and alleged that it might be illegally accessing people’s personal information If your API allows data extraction, it probably isn't a fault of any client. Perhaps they meant that creators could steal credentials. A problem with any software. I think t…

> I think this digital child managing system sounds moderately dystopian to be honest.

A lot of the reactions and rebuttals to this comment are from HN childless people, whose perspective is their memory of being a child age 12-17, talking past HN people with children, whose perspective is about their kids age 5-12. At one end of the range you are educating about drugs and sex and good decisions, on the other end of the range you are worried about clean butts and walking across busy streets.

The method of CREATING an older child who can be an independent and functional adult is by "MICROMANAGING" early-on so they develop good habits (especially good habits of independence!). And I am a Montessori parent which is fairly radical compared to the normal US system.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#257

Post by Fordec » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

yummybear wrote: post #229

aenis wrote: post #208

It would be interesting to know what contractor delivered the original $120m mess, and actively sabotaged open source efforts. The combination of large budget and terrible result suggest some of the very large contractors used to doing work for fortune 500 companies. Shame on those who work there.

Are we shaming employees for company choices? Who works at companies who haven't done questionable actions?

I can't speak for you, but for me, I actually audit the company before accepting a job offer for and I'm proud of the conduct of every position and team I have been a part of. You can't buy reputation, which extends to who you choose to associate with.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#258

Post by ftrobro » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #203

ftrobro wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods That's kind of my point. Let's say you live in a poor neighborhood but do some stock trading and suddenly make a large profit. That will be shown in public records, it's not just salaries that are public. You now have a target on your back. Criminals will not come to your house looking for a laptop, they will come looking for you, putting a gun to your head telling you to t…

"They will come looking for you, putting a gun to your head telling you to transfer your assets to them" You talk about pragmatism but give a crime scenario out of Hollywood movies. Do you mean bank transfer? Am I transferring a million dollars into an official bank account registered in the criminal's real name? Do you mean I should sign a deed giving them possesion of my house, and that would hold up in court? Any…

I'm talking about things that have happened to people I know personally and things I've read in the news:

https://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/krim/man-misshandlad-o...

There are of course other ways to transfer assets than the ones you describe. And yes, one guy was held hostage for weeks:

https://www.thelocal.se/20050715/1746-5/

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#259

Post by tofflos » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

theptip wrote: post #123

urvader wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am Christian Landgren, cofounder of the project) You are right, the city believes they have ownership of the data, mainly because they fail to understand that they aren’t showing data in an app, but rather publishing data in an API. In Swedish law, once you have released data from a government, the receiver have the right to do whatever they want with the that data (as long as it isn’t violating any other laws). T…

Is there any way to write an app that doesn’t “publish the data” by this definition? It seems like publishing was not their intent, and furthermore they were not legally allowed to “publish” personal data. For example if their system includes an app that lets you see your students grades and disciplinary issues, presumably you would not want that published. Is it simply impossible to build an app with such data in Sw…

No, because applications, publishing and intent doesn't factor in.

Student grades and disciplinary issues become official documents as soon as the teacher documents them regardless of form (i.e. paper, audio recording, IT-system, etc). The school is then obligated to provide those official documents to anyone upon request.

The school could argue that this information should be kept secret but student grades are not explicitly protected by law and it has already been established that this type of information is in fact public. I don't know about disciplinary issues but interactions with social services and psychologists are explicitly protected by law.

The Swedish government has always been obligated to make information accessible to humans and with new regulation regarding Open data and Digital government that obligation has increased to also make information accessible to machines. Attempting to create an application that makes this difficult would be misconduct - the Swedish government is obligated to provide APIs.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#260

Post by ftrobro » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #251

ftrobro wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods That's kind of my point. Let's say you live in a poor neighborhood but do some stock trading and suddenly make a large profit. That will be shown in public records, it's not just salaries that are public. You now have a target on your back. Criminals will not come to your house looking for a laptop, they will come looking for you, putting a gun to your head telling you to t…

Your example assumes that crime (including up to ransom and kidnapping!) in poor neighbourhoods goes unpunished. If that’s the case there are more fundamental things to worry about than salary data…

Most crime goes unpunished, no matter the neighborhood. In 2020, only 14% of investigated crimes against persons in Sweden reached a solution. But that doesn't mean we should ignore all other problems.