Live data from Hacker News

Truths about video game stories

bottomfeeder.substack.com

251–260 of 337 posts

Re: Truths about video game stories

#251
post #87

Here are some single player narrative/story driven games which are worth your time and money and also has decent to good storyline. The author seems way too salty over some games I think. - The Last of Us 1 & 2 ( Must play ) - RDR 1&2. ( 2 is must play ) - GTA IV - Mafia 2 - A Plague Tale: Innocence ( must play ) - Metro series. - Inside - Witcher 3 - A Way out ( needs 2 player ) - Night in the woods - Breath of the…

Star Control II and Alpha Centauri are on par with the best SF books out there. Vernor Vinge quality, I would say.

Oh yeaah SCII

Re: Truths about video game stories

#252

I'd be in the opposite camp. Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action. Ya, ya, ya, bla, bla, bla, click, click click, don't care. My ideal is to create my own story rather than have it spoon fed to me. Let me roll a character then let me do what I want in an interactive open world. Sure, some curating and minor direction is OK, but the less the better. I don…

I'd tend to agree.

I think games need to be better about "picking a camp". Many games try to force a strong narrative into an open world design, and both qualities end up faltering because of it. Examples: Mass Effect, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, most Ubisoft games.

The best open world games tell very light narrative. They may have tons of lore to fall upon and discover, but there's otherwise very little arc to the narrative you're progressing through during your time in the game. Examples: Dark Souls 1, Breath of the Wild.

The best narratively-focused games severely limit players' freedoms in how to approach the high-level narrative beats. Some great ones do give some freedoms in how to approach tactical situations (The Last of Us 2), but this doesn't impact the broader arc. Other examples: Bioshock/Infinite, Nier Automata, Portal 2.

There are vanishingly few examples of games which actually do both with high competence. I'd list: Witcher 3, Red Dead 2, Dragon Age Origins as examples. One quality shared among these games is how weak their high level narrative is allowed to be, in exchange for much stronger shorter side-narratives. When people say Witcher 3 has a great story, what they really mean is: It tells tons of very high quality short stories. Similarly with RDR2, the overarching "end of the cowboy" narrative is great, but its the ambient storytelling of the world that sells it as having great storytelling chops.

The bigger issue with narratively-focused games is how the game needs to convince the player that this was worth being a game, and not a TV Show. I feel games like those listed above (TLOU2, Bioshock, Nier, Portal) do this very well, because the beat-to-beat gameplay is compelling despite the strict world architecture. But, many other games which tell strong narratives falter too quickly in providing great gameplay (Telltale games, Firewatch, What Remains of Edith Finch) to justify it being a game. I don't generally hold this against the game, because ultimately if you want to tell a great narrative, and you know how to build games, you'll tell that narrative through a game, that ain't bad, its just one medium among many. But I also fully understand the counter-argument; its sold as a game. People have expectations going into a game, that it won't be a movie, yet that's basically all Telltale ever made, Bandersnatch-style clickable movies.

Discussions like this are one of the things I love about gaming; its such a nascent medium, its still trying to find its footing and what makes a game great. Why is Breath of the Wild so much better than Immortals: Fenyx Rising? I've played both a ton, I've thought about it a ton, and I still don't feel that I have a compelling answer which wouldn't be a 200 page essay. BotW copied a ton of gameplay elements from earlier Ubisoft games. Ubisoft then copied a ton of gameplay elements from BotW for Immortals. Yet, the Ubisoft products are never as good. What makes BotW special? Can Nintendo replicate it for BotW2? Do they even want to? Probably not; despite developing the same franchises for decades, Nintendo rarely retreads gameplay ground; so, follow-up question, how the hell is Nintendo so good at consistently creating new gameplay experiences? Why have so vanishingly few companies replicated their production success?

Re: Truths about video game stories

#253

I'd be in the opposite camp. Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action. Ya, ya, ya, bla, bla, bla, click, click click, don't care. My ideal is to create my own story rather than have it spoon fed to me. Let me roll a character then let me do what I want in an interactive open world. Sure, some curating and minor direction is OK, but the less the better. I don…

> Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action.

I don't think you're in the opposite camp as he is. Your point above is essentially his Observation 2.

> the vast majority of players just tune out the story. As long as you let them skip past it, it's fine.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#254
I agree with a lot of his points, and with the general thesis of the article. But, I disagree with this:

> The default video game plot is, 'See that guy over there? That guy is bad. Kill that guy.' If your plot is anything different, you're 99% of the way to having a better story.

I don't think the structure of the story needs to be more complex than that to be good. It can be, but neither complexity, nor novelty, nor non-linearity are what makes stories good. The stuff he dismisses as being of limited value (good dialog and interesting worlds) are extremely important. I'd add characterization to that. But those things are, to lots of people, all equally as important as structure in making a story meaningful.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#255

I think the author is right that games generally have poor, or poorly executed stories, and even great stories need to be squeezed into the game play box (e.g. his "ends with bang"-trope.) But I also feel like the author misunderstands how the medium can elevate a story: "Old mans Journey" was critized for having too simple puzzles, but it is not a puzzle game. It's a story, where a few simple puzzles gives you time…

Another game in the "I can't imagine this working well in other media"-category is Senua's Sacrifice. Like, sure, the story could be critically subsumized as "generic identity struggle", but the way it's written and and delivered only works in a game. Perhaps that's a decent first cut for a story in a videogame: If you made this a movie instead, would it still work? If you make a movie out of e.g. any of the Call of…

> If you make a movie out of e.g. any of the Call of Duty games, you'd mostly end up with a generic action movie without having to change the script.

This is kind of a funny comparison, because the first Call of Duty game was practically a string of set-piece action scenes, and sometimes plot lines, that were very obviously lifted from popular WWII war movies from the prior few years. IMO—and I doubt this is an uncommon sentiment among people who played it—those were also easily the best parts of the game.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This author has it spot on: our standards for story telling in video games are really low. Are they? I would say that they are, but not for video games, but for all things in general. Sturgeon's law [0] states that "ninety percent of everything is crap." And it was supposedly originally about sci-fi novels! “Fifty Shades of Grey” was completely criticized on all fronts by reviewers, but still became one of the top…

> “Fifty Shades of Grey” was completely criticized on all fronts by reviewers, but still became one of the top bestsellers. > [...] > Most of the stories created today are low-quality ones. And that was always so. Only when we look at the past creations, we can only experience those that were good enough to be preserved. I'm pretty sure that Fifty Shades of Grey wasn't successful for its story, but for discussing sex…

> I'm pretty sure that Fifty Shades of Grey wasn't successful for its story, but for discussing sex and specifically BDSM in a more open way than what was previously seen in "mainstream" movies.

And because it feeded from the Twilight-Hype, on which it was a juicy twist. For itself it probably would never have become such a success.

> but you could say exactly the same thing about Minecraft, DOOM

Can we? Minecraft feeds mainly on its powerful sandboxing and modability, which other games still can't really match today, while also still getting regular updates. And doom as a franchise continued to move forward and created new games. They don't remain successful just because their first versions were awesome at the time, but because they continued to output awesome successors.

This is very different from classics which are usually frozen in time and stay classics despite getting no updates at all.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#257

I'd be in the opposite camp. Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action. Ya, ya, ya, bla, bla, bla, click, click click, don't care. My ideal is to create my own story rather than have it spoon fed to me. Let me roll a character then let me do what I want in an interactive open world. Sure, some curating and minor direction is OK, but the less the better. I don…

> there are plenty of video games that action wise I have no problem letting my kid play but can't due to the story and mainly the cut scenes. Examples?

Sengoku Rance is my favorite example of this — a hentai game whose game mechanics and plot are so engrossing that no one sticks around for the hentai

Re: Truths about video game stories

#258

Many video games have very poor or bare plots, but amazing settings. In fact, I'm not sure that video games are actually good vehicles for plots. Video games are interactive, but all good plots require careful pacing and timing in order to be successful. It's possible to force this in a game, but the more you do, the more the game becomes an interactive movie. A great example would be Dark Souls: incredible setting,…

> not sure that video games are actually good vehicles for plots. Video games are interactive, but all good plots require careful pacing and timing in order to be successful.

Video games are a great medium for plots! You just have to allow the plot to fail, and let the player take it on tangents. Games that go "uhh you died that's not canon let's rewind" are just shitty games.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#259
post #193
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the game showing you they’re bad with gameplay instead of telling you with a cutscene or text.

Games were showing rather then telling long before half life. That was not something special. I don't know whether people here did not played games other then half life back then or half life is only thing they remember. And the difference between full cit scene and what happened in half life was really really minor.

You're gonna have to list some pre-Half-Life games that did a better job.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#260
post #252

I'd be in the opposite camp. Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action. Ya, ya, ya, bla, bla, bla, click, click click, don't care. My ideal is to create my own story rather than have it spoon fed to me. Let me roll a character then let me do what I want in an interactive open world. Sure, some curating and minor direction is OK, but the less the better. I don…

I'd tend to agree. I think games need to be better about "picking a camp". Many games try to force a strong narrative into an open world design, and both qualities end up faltering because of it. Examples: Mass Effect, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, most Ubisoft games. The best open world games tell very light narrative. They may have tons of lore to fall upon and discover, but there's otherwise very little arc to th…

It's funny you mention RDR2. For me it's the best example of why I hate fixed characters in open world video games. The protagonist in RDR2 is a perfect representation of my uncle. Looks like him, sounds like him, dresses pretty close. Now I like my uncle and all but have no desire to spend 40 hours or so playing him in a video game. I did not last long in single player. Multiplayer was cool but it turned in to the same as the first: a Texas hold-um simulator with a very involved character customization mini game...
Post reply on HN