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A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

economist.com

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Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#251

Post by xendo »

_game_of_life wrote: post #173
rkk3 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second that EconTalk episode. Alternatively recent Atlantic article that is adapted from his book the least of us https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...

>"Perhaps the best defense against epidemics like this one lies in choosing to look more closely and more sympathetically at the people in those hoods—to put a higher priority on community than we’ve done in recent years. America has made itself more vulnerable to scourges, even as those scourges grow more potent. But scourges are also an opportunity: They call on us to reexamine how we live. Until we begin to look o…

Rogan already discussed the problem of homelessness with several experts, and the topic is something he cares a lot about. I wouldn’t dissmiss his opinions basen on the fact that he is „goddamn podcaster”. I don’t think he ever disputed that there is correlation between socio-economic status and addition. What he however questioned is the idea that giving addicted money and housing will solve the problem. San Franciso spends more money than any other city and gets the worst outcome so it seems he may have a point after all.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#252

Post by nullc »

deanCommie wrote: post #121
no_butterscotch wrote: post #39

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

It's good that people investigate homelessness and go one level deeper. But why do they stop at drug addiction? Or worse, decide that drug addiction is the underlying root cause that now needs to be treated with rehab, detox, or what have you. Drug addiction is not the cause of poverty. Poverty is the cause of drug addiction. The stories of the people who get into drugs recreationally, then descend into addiction, an…

> Poverty is the cause of drug addiction.

Can you elaborate?

On it's face this seems really counter intuitive to me.

Drugs cost money. Not having money doesn't somehow force you to use drugs.

Where the opposite direction seems obvious: The cost of maintaining an addiction and the reduction in reliability from drug use can result in being unable to work, increasing your poverty.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#253

Post by bllguo »

Splatter wrote: post #227
s5300 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming to conclusions about solutions via Joe Rogan's podcast is only contributing to the problem, friend.

Wouldn't it be better to argue why what was heard on Rogan's podcast is wrong, rather than implicitly arguing that all solutions heard on Rogan's podcast are wrong. To me, your response seems like the bigger problem. Information (including dis- and mis-) is all around us. Arguing that information from sources you dislike is wrong because you dislike the source is illogical. Respectfully, you should address exactly wh…

Information being all around us is precisely why your request is just as wrong. To ask experts to take time to evaluate all the questionable sources out there is unreasonable. And yes, this is a questionable source regardless of the interviewee or your feelings about Rogan. Obviously any podcast cannot be a rigorous or thorough treatment of the topic. The format makes that impossible.

The flip side of information being ubiquitous is that quality information has never been more accessible. Research papers and studies are clicks away. The answer is to not form conclusions so quickly, to seek reputable sources, and to seek a lot of them.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#254

Post by honkdaddy »

sizzle wrote: post #248
zarkov99 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not poverty at all . The issue is addiction. This constant framing of the homeless as dispossessed victims, rather than substance abusers with agency, makes it impossible to solve the issue.

No the issue is lack of mental health intervention because the field of Psychiatry and our collective understanding of brain chemistry imbalances is very rudimentary, the science just isn’t there yet. So people with mental health problems can’t hold jobs and function in society like people with neurotypical brain chemistry. Addiction can be linked to dopamine regulation disorder e.g. ADHD and risky behavior like gamb…

If you walk down many streets in the Mission and look a certain way, people will offer you weed, crack, or smack openly on the sidewalk in broad daylight. That's not an exaggeration, and if you haven't been to your city's equivalent I highly encourage it.

If you imagine a society crippled by gambling addiction, perhaps the best place to start would be by closing some casinos.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#255

Post by vkou »

freyir wrote: post #220
RobLach wrote: post #191

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

San Francisco already has among the highest number of people placed in supportive housing per capita of any city in the country. How many more people need to be placed in supportive housing in San Francisco before this problem is solved? If homes are abundant in Charlotte, why do so many homeless people live on the streets in San Francisco instead, where there’s not even sufficient housing to support working middle c…

> San Francisco already has among the highest number of people placed in supportive housing per capita of any city in the country.

Is it actually higher in SF than in NYC?

> When Newsom tried this approach as mayor, his conclusion was that for every homeless person they put into housing, two more would show up the street.

This is a fascinating idea. Does this mean that kicking one person out of housing somehow remove two from the street?

Or could it mean that three people end up homeless in the time that it takes to house one homeless person?

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#257

Post by Freskis »

whateveracct wrote: post #147
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, clearly petty theft is no bother and correcting the injustices of oppressive society! I hope you experience your things being stolen one day and not being able to afford to replace them and change your mind.

Nobody said that. They said incarceration for petty theft is unreasonable.

Would love to have your privilege of considering petty theft to be harmless. For the majority of vulnerable people, it causes extreme emotional and financial distress. Try talking to actual people who are not privileged and see what they think about being victims of petty theft.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#258

Post by jjav »

RobLach wrote: post #191

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

> Charlotte, NC, a city with a lower population, built 160,000 new units.

Charlotte, NC also has way more open space to expand than SF, which has none, surrounded by water on three sides and other cities to the south.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#259

Post by inglor_cz »

RobLach wrote: post #191

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

Norway has 5 million people in total, and used to be very homogeneous. I think it was Robert Putnam who showed that with increasing diversity, you will get less solidarity and openness/trust towards strangers.

Homelessness may be a solved problem in Norway, but it does not mean that Norwegian solution is readily transplantable into San Francisco. Much like we failed to transplant modern way of life to Afghanistan.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#260

Post by refurb »

camgunz wrote: post #239
refurb wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you quote the exact statement by the mayor that you feel is unfair and/or unhelpful?

Sure but, I feel like you're gonna try and deeply litigate it so, I'm skeptical it'll be productive: "What isn’t working is spending more money on it without changing behaviors. People are never going to [move] forward with their lives. You don’t want to be in a situation with public policy where you’re enabling really bad, destructive behavior." It might sound kind of anodyne, but it's basically what leaders say whe…

Personal responsibility is good though right? Not that a lack is the cause or having more is a cure for every homeless person, but if those who didn’t currently take person responsibility changed and did - would that be a bad thing?

I guess it depends on exactly how you interpret his statement, but the core idea that money alone isn’t going to fix the problem seems reasonable.

I mean, if someone is out on the street due to addiction, they won’t recover without personal responsibility. If someone is on the street due to untreated mental illness, then yeah, personal responsibility likely won’t help.

I though his statement was relatively even handed.

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