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Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

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Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#251

Post by redis_mlc »

PoignardAzur wrote: post #156
garblegarble wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netflix has yet to determine that it is better to build it themselves. Somewhat off the core topic, but netflix run their own CDN (I also don't see any evidence for that 1.2 billion AWS bill figure, can you…

I'm not sure Netflix Open Connect counts as a CDN? They might still use distributed servers from AWS.

> They might still use distributed servers from AWS.

Once again, since HN readers are so thick ...

They never used AWS for streaming, unless it was a test of some kind, or maybe to feed origin servers in their CDN, etc.

The only conceivable situation where they would is if AWS rolled out a new region in Oceania or somewhere else remote and there was no alternative at launch time.

Source: ex-Netflix.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#252

Post by ksec »

imajoredinecon wrote: post #215
pornel wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the arrogance and entitlement they've shown during Epic trial. Apple really believes that their OS and Store are godsend to developers, and this makes developers forever indebted to Apple for the 30% cut of everything happening through it. I have to use mediocre Xcode, limited OS APIs, fight signing, sandboxing, lack of Vulcan, and capricious review. I need to keep rewriting churning APIs with "No Overview Availa…

> Apple really believes that their OS and Store are godsend to developers, Or, at least, their lawyers have decided that is the line of argument likeliest to lead to a victory.

Having followed Apple very closely for more than two decade and tried very hard to convince myself that was the case, their PR and Marketing are simply very aligned on this issue. Especially after Katie Cotton stepped down.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#253

Post by drdaeman »

elliekelly wrote: post #184
drdaeman wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, from the third email it's clear they meant for Netflix to be treated as everyone else (after they figured the rules for the program they mention), eliminating this special treatment. In my personal belief, Cook would've won more by admitting they may have some exceptions, but actively try to get rid of those. It's arguable of course, but it the email he justifies it by end-user interests and he probably m…

> It's arguable of course, but it the email he justifies it by end-user interests and he probably means it. Perhaps I’m just cynical but I can’t help but think all of the Apple execs have had “best for the consumer” drilled into them for the purposes of the antitrust issues that are inevitably coming. If I were a shrewd Apple exec trying to posture against antitrust litigation and/or regulation I’d be sprinkling “bes…

> I can’t help but think all of the Apple execs have had “best for the consumer” drilled into them for the purposes of the antitrust issues

Oh, I'm sure every talking head is trained for newspeak until they start to believe it.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#254

Post by ksec »

croshan wrote: post #111
ksec wrote: post #83

I am pretty sure I read something similar before. Probably from Benedict Evans or somewhere else. I think the most important issue from these email isn't the lack of Alternative App Store, IAP, or 70/30 split. It is that Apple Execs has Zero understanding of how other business works especially with respect to Internet or Software Services. They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to c…

I love that quote. To get where you want to be, it may be helpful to build the skills you want, before you need them. At this point, an organization like Apple is too cemented to easily change. I think you can't learn _everything_ on the job, because some things you'll learn too late. Now, it's more than "a few decades later," and have they really learned how to partner?

I think Steve Jobs did learn how to partner with people and being very very careful which battle to pick after he came back from NeXT. Qualcomm Modem and Patents agreement, Gorilla Glass on Original iPhone. Both likely pissed off Apple's Operation because of their huge increase in BOM. As Disney's ex CEO Bob Iger said, if Steve was alive they would probably have bought or partnered with Disney on streaming. Now Apple is in the content business competing directly with Netflix and Disney.

As shown in Qualcomm, IMG case. Tim Cook's Apple just aren't very good at partnering.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#255

Post by martimarkov »

caf wrote: post #233
martimarkov wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is not a popular opinion but I think that Apple do provide the value. They created the device, the OS, the marketing behind it, the physical stores, all of that. The iPhone is an iconic device because of all the investment Apple put into it. Yes, there are also the millions of developers and apps out there. But the one thing that Apple did right (for me and I guess most iOS users) is that they kept control…

If an app was allowed to say "you can sign up in the App Store for $X, or you can sign up directly on our website for $(0.7 X)", shouldn't that satisfy you? You'd be able to have your convenient UX and keep your financial relationship solely with Apple - paying the full price for that benefit - and others who are happy for the less convenient UX and having a direct financial relationship with the developer will not h…

No because you are breaking the UX with the price reduction incentive. Let’s say we care about the customer’s choice of OS and that they chose to have that single UX. If the app choice is: pay $X using iAP or pay $X using our own payment system: which one would most ppl choose? I’d argue that it will be the iAP.

So they prefer the UX Apple provides.

Now if we start adding incentives towards the other method you are pushing them more to what YOU prefer they do. You as a single developer would always be incentivised to take as much money from as many customers - hence dark patterns. And sure not every product and not every developer but most.

Overtime the trust in the “it just works” erodes as it doesn’t really work well anymore. I don’t think this is something that Apple want to see.

I think I might be happy for a limited trial of same price diff gateways method and see the results.

But as I always try to point out: I chose iOS for the look and feel. I don’t want the freedom in Android. I don’t want to have 30 subscriptions in random places my grandad got tricked into buying. Developers can always make the choice tell ppl to use Android & not develop for iOS and I respect that.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#256

Post by saagarjha »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #240
JohnBooty wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in many ways the same argument that ISPs used during the net neutrality debates as to why Netflix should have to pay them extra money. The parallels are there for sure. I would agree that gatekeeping is bad, and I often don't like how Apple behaves as gatekeeper. But there are massive key differences as well. Many ISPs have a local monopoly over broadband access. Many people have only a single choice for a br…

> Apps downloaded from the App Store are clearly the primary use case for iPhones/iPads in 2021. My general sense is that most people prefer not to install apps: I know many people that look askance at websites that attempt to funnel them to an app and generally only isntall 1-5 apps beside the default set from Apple.

I am one of those people. But even then, I am pretty sure we're a small minority: most people have many, many apps that they hardly ever use. If a website tells them to install an app, they'll do it, because the website told them to.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#257

Post by saagarjha »

martimarkov wrote: post #220
they4kman wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The customer wants convenience, the developer wants to give convenience, and Apple charges 10-30x the going rate of merchant fees for it. And neither the developer nor the customer can pick a different style of convenience. I don't think it can be a free market if customers can't choose another option and developers can't compete with existing options.

Well I disagree. You can choose Android. What I feel normally lacks from the discussion is that the consumer has consciously chosen the OS and device. That choice needs to be respected and I think developers are now trying to augment what platform is doing. Apart from making more money I can’t see a reason how this benefits the customer (except edge cases - happy to be proven wrong here but haven’t really thought of…

How sure are you that customers chose iOS solely for their ability to pay Netflix via IAP, and not like the fact that Apple makes the sexiest, fastest phones that run iMessage and let them call their mom using FaceTime? Like, this is how people choose operating systems, I doubt most users even know how the 30% cut works (not that Apple makes it easy for you to tell them…)

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#258

Post by saagarjha »

asdff wrote: post #234
saagarjha wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Apple of today does fix holes as soon as they can. But they don't really need to steal jailbreak tweaks anymore to figure out that people want to be able to change their homescreens…

There was a lot more than that which was copied, honestly. Notification center. Control center. Widgets. Low power mode. Notifications where you can reply in line. Probably hundreds more tiny quality of life things too that have made their way into iOS over the years that were first seen on cydia. Here's a list of 60 of them at least (2018): https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/60-ios-features-apple-sto...

Oh, I 100% agree, I'm just saying Apple may not see it that way anymore.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#259

Post by JohnBooty »

ls15 wrote: post #210
JohnBooty wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple by comparison demands 15% which is 3.5x as much of a cut. Apple provides credit card processing, and approval into the App Store (plus according to a comment in this email, it sounds like they keep Netflix in the App Store promotion rotation as "free" ad-space). This isn't anywhere near the value that AWS provides That's debatable. To put it mildly. Apple provides them access to, literally, nearly a billion pot…

> Apple provides them access to, literally, nearly a billion potential customers Are they providing them access or are the not denying them access?

There are a lot of things I hate about Apple's App Store, but it provides some significant services.

It is not a simple "pipe" between developers and users.

For developers it provides seamless and secure payments, SDKs, APIs, an IDE, and app distribution and updates to roughly a billion customers.

For end-users, it provides a mostly seamless experience, and (unlike other app stores) a nearly airtight guarantee that an app won't be fraudulent, won't install spyware, won't fuck up your machine, and can be easily uninstalled if you don't like it.

There are myriad flaws, and we can choose hate the overarching concept of folks needing an "app store" instead of simply running apt-get or whatever like Real Computer Users™. We can certainly choose to hate many things about it, like Apple's gatekeeping w.r.t. adult/controversial apps or their maddening review process.

But the things they do provide are significant and clearly have value to many.

So yes, I think it's appropriate to think of them as "providing access" and not merely "not denying it."

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#260

Post by saurik »

mitemte wrote: post #174
emsy wrote: post #60

The problem here are not the special deals, saurik commented he cut special deals in the Cydia store occasionally the last time this topic came up. The problem is that there is no alternative to Apple when it comes to publishing software and content on the iPhone and that makes these kind of deals unfair.

Disclaimer: this is from memory You could submit paid products to default Cydia repositories, where you personally handled payments. There was no commission in such scenarios. If you opted for payments to be handled by SaurikIT, a 30% fee was in place. Cydia had special deals in place for Intelliborn products, I dont think this extended to other groups. Intelliborn previously operated Rock Your iPhone, which was acqu…

I also had special deals in place for various other developers. The deal with Intelliborn was especially "at cost", but I also did deals with anyone who seemed to have leverage or whom I simply felt a need to motivate. In one interesting case I actually took a larger cut than 30% in exchange for extremely pervasive cross-promotional advertising, though you could argue that was simply a separate service "on top" of the payment processing.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27615663 <- some commentary I wrote about Apple's negotiating position with respect to the 15% discounts for anti-bulk sales (which is weirdly backwards) where I touch on special deals (and tie in how Intelliborn's special deal was in some sense due to store competition).

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