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A generation of American men give up on college

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Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#251

On the other side: A stat shared at my most recent tech companies meeting, they are trying to hire more women. 5000 people applied for a single position and 15 of them were women. This was for a high paying tech job.

What does your job description say? What are your company reviews on Glassdoor? What does the whisper network say about what it's like to work as a woman in tech at your company? Using a low estimate of 15% of CS degrees going to women, you'd get 750 women applying. What are you doing to get so many women to give your company an immediate rejection and apply somewhere else?

Perhaps frankbreetz works for a company that isn't very cool, making it people's third choice; and a disproportionate number of women got hired by their first or second choice employer.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing with vocationals skills - they make you really good at understanding how something works or how to fix something without breaking something else, but beyond that range of problems and solutions, you need to talk to an engineer. Not that vocational jobs are not important - clearly they add value and create employment.

I'm not so sure they understand how it works, though. BTW, if you ever see an EE with a card that has printed on it: V = I*R I = V/R R = V/I it's a sure sign he's a formula-plugger, and has no idea how it works. He doesn't even understand algebra. https://testguy.net/content/266-Ohm-s-Law-Watt-s-Law-Cheat-S... A definite no-hire :-/

Because proper EEs draw it in a triangle instead? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Ohm%27s_...

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#253
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he? hadn't consumed the resources necessary to get the MA, he would still have paid the same amount of taxes - most of which will be subsidising other people. But if paying the full cost, there would be a choice where down one path there is more money because less resources were consumed, and one that would be roughly equivalent.

I just want to point out that a MA in film was extremely cheap at one time. A friend of mine got one at a state school for about $5 grand in the early 1990s. The issue is that inflation and rising costs in the US have wildly diverged from real wages. People aren't going to college in the US because it isn't economically feasible. Meanwhile, all my European friends have PhDs which were subsidized by their native count…

I determined I didn’t want to continue school around 17/18 for a variety of reasons. Some out of my own arrogance and some I still hold to this day. Because of this of course, I didn’t “set myself up” for school so to speak. Didn’t bother with managing good grades, taking standardized tests or building my portfolio with any of the academic or non academic line items schools typically look at.

Flash forward and I start to rethink the decision. I want to go back now, but I’ve attempted multiple times to investigate it and the numbers never work. Because I didn’t play my HS years correctly, the bureaucracy will not let me in, regardless of the things I’ve accomplished in the years since. Additionally the price is just so prohibitive, combined with the fact that I would get next to no aid and even a standard State school would be ridiculously expensive. These are just a handful of the issues though. Let’s not even bring up how I would need a simultaneously drop out of the workforce, suddenly turning the financial burden into Tuition/Books/Fees + everything needed to survive.

I’m really convinced that universities in the US do not want non traditional students at all. Obviously there are some programs that target them, but are often limited. I.e. you have to be part of the right demographic, be limited in the areas you can study. A notable state university near me offers over a dozen online Bachelors programs, but not a single “useful” degree, they’re all BA’s in subjects that people in HN mock. Other seem to cobble together “made up” degrees, which are bachelors that don’t have a traditional or on-campus equivalent and seem to be not particularly useful for employment in attempt to scam poorer, non-credentialed people out of their money.

I could still probably go back, but since I can not hack my way out of the bureaucracy or financial cost, majority of the value proposition would be completely dead by the time o could manage it.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#254
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does your job description say? What are your company reviews on Glassdoor? What does the whisper network say about what it's like to work as a woman in tech at your company? Using a low estimate of 15% of CS degrees going to women, you'd get 750 women applying. What are you doing to get so many women to give your company an immediate rejection and apply somewhere else?

> Using a low estimate of 15% of CS degrees going to women, you'd get 750 women applying. There were three in my cohort of ~35; and that was much more dense on that programme that was a (more CS-oriented) subset of the EE department's variants - something like 15 of 400 in first year, higher ratio (i.e. fewer female drop-outs/more doing MEng) by the end I think though. Only a few years ago. And even then, your conclu…

> for something more senior you'd need to at least look at grad rates further back

Sure. They have never dipped as low as 15% which is why I used it as very safe and generous number. Here's one source.

https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/womenmajor...

> if not what happens to people once in industry

Indeed. What happens to people after they get a job is a relevant factor. It would be interesting to see both dropout rates over a career lifetime and if senior level women in tech are concentrated in a group of companies known to be good to work at via the whisper network.

Even age is a factor. Most folks don't stick with their CS job until retirement age, although some are smart enough to save and retire before that age. Age discrimination is not exactly rare though.

I have no idea where I'd get that kind of data or if it even exists, but maybe someone else does.

Given that kind of data, an industry with a constant deficit of qualified senior level candidates would do well to improve that situation by figuring out how to reduce the dropouts.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a book called, Everytjing I should have learned in Engineering School, but didn't. I had no idea there were EE's walking around who were rusty with basic electrical formulas.

Shocking, isn't it!

They just take the path of least resistance

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#256
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic. That's funny, really. I always only ever encounter it used by people who smear any and all masculinity as "toxic". Do you have a link to a place "toxic masculinity" is used to describe a minority subset of the male population?

> That's funny, really. I always only ever encounter it used by people who smear any and all masculinity as "toxic". Sounds like you've managed to get yourself living in quite the bubble/echo chamber. Go explore the world dude.

I'm unaware of any social circles use the term "toxic masculinity" and are not using it to smear men. People outside of those bubbles do not use the term at all, probably because its pretty offensive to males.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the number of "affirmative-action" initiatives that I see all over the US, in many tech-companies (I don't know about other fields), I'd say that being a women, or black, is definitely a huge plus to get your foot through the door, with many recruitment programs blatantly saying they are only for minorities, which sounds to me like pretty much segregation in reverse, but that indeed seems to be the agenda of…

> with many recruitment programs blatantly saying they are only for minorities Really? I understood that it was illegal to discriminate based on gender, race, etc in the US

It is widespread in big-tech.

This is an-ex Google engineer talking about one he saw and created a video about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pizXzR7ZQ8Q

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many FAANG companies are there? I guess five from the name. Does every black applicant with a CS degree get a job if they apply? It's a free pass? Your sample size of five elite companies can't be taken as a serious attempt to describe the actual experience of black CS grads applying for jobs.

A charitable (and, I think, reasonable) reading would be that the poster used FAANG as a representation of the overall trend in tech. FAANG are what the rest of the industry aspires to be, after all.

How many CS jobs are even in the "the industry" though? Home Depot, Walmart, and Nestle are examples of massive companies that do not aspire to be Facebook or anything like it, but who hire lots of software engineers. Most companies are not tech companies, although a handful of tech giants have done very well.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have bad information because FAANG companies compete over hiring black software engineers. They want to get their numbers up and there aren’t many to hire.

My company is only hiring black engineers or women. You have no chance if you are a white man and don’t have an in.

How is that legal?

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#260

The last psychiatrist once wrote that women go where men are leaving. I don't know if this is true, but it seems to pop up in several areas.

IME, women - more than men - tend to naturally flow to where there's maximal social acceptance & minimal risk.

This tends to be after the wave of early risk takers made it such.

Example: We're seeing more % women entering the crypto space every year.

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