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One Bad Apple

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251–260 of 557 posts

Re: One Bad Apple

#251

I haven’t read all the details, articles, and comments. My personal thoughts on the whole situation are the following. If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried. I equate this to Ring cameras. They are everywhere.…

> It’s all an invasion of privacy until you’re sitting on the other side of the table where you have a vested interest in getting access to the information.

That's why it's so insidious. People keep making it about children, which are a very worthy cause. Nobody wants child abuse. But the problem is that the technology can be used for anything. Wouldn't it be nice to read all of the internal Slack messages at a company you're about to acquire? Wouldn't it be nice for Apple to have a copy of Google's source code? Wouldn't it be nice for a political candidate to cause their opponent some legal trouble? Spying on other people is always very valuable and governments (and corporations, probably) spend billions of dollars a year on it.

If we want to make this just about detecting abuse of children, I'm totally on board. Pass a law that says using this technology to steal corporate secrets or to gain a political advantage is punishable by death. Then maybe it can be taken seriously as something very narrow in scope. That, of course, would never happen. (Death penalty arguments aside; I'm exaggerating for effect.)

I can't believe that once this technology is out, it's only going to be used for good. (I imagine politicians will love this. Look at the recent Andrew Cuomo abuse allegations -- he abuses women, and then his staff try to cover it up by leaking documents, to discredit the abused. Sure would be nice to see what sort of things they have on their phone, right? Will someone like Cuomo NEVER have a friend that can add detection hashes to the set and review the results? I would say it's a certainty that a powerful politician will have loyal insiders in the government, and that if this system is rolled out, we're going to see colossal abuse -- flat-out facilitation of crime, lives ruined -- over the next 20 years.)

I have to wonder what Apple's angle is here. It would cost them less money to do nothing. They could be paying these researchers to work on something that makes Apple money, and banning users from their platform (or having them hauled off to prison) doesn't help them make money. I really don't want to be the conspiracy theory guy, but doesn't it seem weird that the Department of Justice wants to investigate Apple's 30% app store cut, and right about that time, Apple comes up with a new way to surveil the population for the Department of Justice? Maybe I read too much HN.

Re: One Bad Apple

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure, I think it may be a lose-lose scenario, with both the government and the companies who's products have become compromised taking a big hit. The people merely avoiding the tainted products aren't on blast here.

The people on blast are the ones publicly advocating for privacy. They're the ones who would be damaged in that scenario, and I for one want a society that takes them seriously.

Well, it doesn't look that way so far. I haven't seen any credible mainstream positions ridiculing the people advocating for privacy. It seems like everyone's pretty well aware that technology sucks and systems like this are not to be trusted, even if they're implemented with good intentions.

We will see.

Re: One Bad Apple

#253
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past these people would have been developing the pictures themselves, and handing them between each other either personally or in some hidden manner using public systems. Not only has communication become easier, so has surveillance. The only difference now is that it's easier for people not to be aware when their very personal privacy is invaded, and that it can be done to the whole populace at once.

>Not only has communication become easier, so has surveillance. It is a devil's advocate response, but can you explain why this is a bad thing? If communication is scaling and becoming easier, why shouldn't surveillance?

Why shouldn't every Neuralink come with a mandated FBI module preinstalled? Where, if anywhere, is private life to remain, where citizens think and communicate freely? Is Xinjiang just the start for the whole world?

Re: One Bad Apple

#254
post #233
post #18

There are a lot of articles about Apples hadh algorithm and for me they are mostly irrelevant to the main problem. The main problem is that Apple has backdoored my device. More types of bad images or other files will be scanned since now apple does not have plausible deniablity to defend any of ghe government’x requests. In the future a false? positive that happened? to be of a political file that crept in the list c…

> More types of bad images or other files will be scanned since now apple does not have plausible deniablity to defend any of ghe government’x requests. The mechanism doesn’t scan anything except images, and won’t trigger on a single bad image - only a set. Yes, that set could be something other than child porn, assuming Apple and NCMEC conspire, but this is not a general purpose backdoor.

It also only scans images uploaded to icloud

Re: One Bad Apple

#256

NCMEC has essentially shows that they have zero regard for privacy and called all privacy activists "screeching voices of the minority". At the same time, they're at the center point of a highly opaque, entrenched (often legally mandated) censorhip infrastructure that can and will get accounts shut down irrecoverably and possibly people's homes raided, on questionable data: In one of the previous discussions, I've se…

One way to interpret the macaque photo is that the database has already been subverted for uses other than catching CP.

Re: One Bad Apple

#257
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too often the tech community's response is that the intangible concept of privacy is more important than the tangible issue of child abuse. Is it intangible? 18% of the world lives in China alone. That's more people than the "1/10 who are victims of child abuse*", and I'm sure that 18% will only grow as other authoritarian countries get more technologically advanced. I think "Think of the kids" applies very well to…

You can’t seriously be suffering that Apple not implementing these measures will somehow be good for privacy in China?

The implication -- and I think it's a valid one -- is that this client-side mechanism will be very quickly co-opted to also alert on non-CSAM material. For example, Winnie the Pooh memes in China.

Re: One Bad Apple

#258

There is one particular thing I don’t understand about this Apple policy: You can buy a SIM card and send images to your enemies/competitors through WhatsApp, and these images automatically gets downloaded to iPhone and potentially uploaded to iCloud. What precautions are Apple taking against such actions? Or will it be some kind of exploitable implementation where you can easily swat any person you want and let them…

I know of no messaging app the “automatically” uploads to iCloud. And what sort of idiot would try and send CP using a messenger app (almost all of which CASM detection). That’s like trying to smuggle drugs past the TSA so you can put them in someone’s house to frame them.

WhatsApp automatically saves images to the phone, which automatically get uploaded.

So yes, it does work this way. It does on my iPhone.

Re: One Bad Apple

#259
post #108

NCMEC has essentially shows that they have zero regard for privacy and called all privacy activists "screeching voices of the minority". At the same time, they're at the center point of a highly opaque, entrenched (often legally mandated) censorhip infrastructure that can and will get accounts shut down irrecoverably and possibly people's homes raided, on questionable data: In one of the previous discussions, I've se…

It’s not enough to disband the NCMEC, I want jail time for these people. This is literally conspiracy to undermine the privacy and security of over a billion devices (and their users) to catch a “small minority” of criminals. These people deserve to lose their homes and freedom for this, along with every engineer and executive that participated.

wtf. are you OK? Your whole comment history looks like a guy diving in a really bad conspiracy rabbit hole.

Re: One Bad Apple

#260

There is one particular thing I don’t understand about this Apple policy: You can buy a SIM card and send images to your enemies/competitors through WhatsApp, and these images automatically gets downloaded to iPhone and potentially uploaded to iCloud. What precautions are Apple taking against such actions? Or will it be some kind of exploitable implementation where you can easily swat any person you want and let them…

Funnily enough, iMessage is also adopting this as a (default on!) option in iOS 15. Which is also where the anti-CP "feature" drops...
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