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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#251

Post by [deleted] »

cyberpunk wrote: post #63
rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

[deleted]

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#253

Post by Nursie »

andrewzah wrote: post #222
Nursie wrote: post #79

Wow, there are a lot of judgemental and defensive responses here, from people who are allegedly working towards greater self knowledge and detachment... So many saying some variation of "he's not doing it right". Yet with ten years of practice, it doesn't seem like this person was just dabbling or dipping their toe in the water. Surely, even if they are "doing it wrong" that just goes to prove the point, that what's…

10 years doesn't really mean much by itself. If I incorrectly practice guitar for 10 years, I'll have experience of practicing the guitar incorrectly, and maybe RSI/health issues from not learning correct posture, etc. There is no rule that I'll actually get "good" at guitar by practicing that way. "that 's being taught and lauded so much as a panacea" Lauded by whom? And exactly? Buddhism? Meditation? Those are very…

> If I incorrectly practice guitar for 10 years, I'll have experience of practicing the guitar incorrectly, and maybe RSI/health issues

Whether the person in the article practised incorrectly or not is not really the issue. The narrative on and praise for mindfulness in recent years has not included any warnings that there may be dangers. Quite the opposite, it is usually posited as an unambiguous positive.

Your idea that this person was 'doing it wrong' is quite a hand-wavy posture to start with, especially as the author finds that such problems have been described by experienced practitioners.

> Lauded by whom?

The article mentions whom - the various interested parties in mindfulness, the great and the good that attend and throw conferences, those that throw workshops and run retreats. To some extent mainstream journalism and society at large, and even hacker news - mindfulness has been favourably covered here and in a variety of other places over the last several years, never have I seen a warning that you may experience mental health problems if you do it badly, or too much, or whatever.

> Those are very different and learning from an experienced practitioner is important.

Oh I'm sure they are, and I'm sure it is. Do you have evidence that the author was not learning from experienced practitioners? Or are you merely knee-jerking to the defence of something you personally like?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#254

Post by lolc »

scotty79 wrote: post #229
theqabalist wrote: post #225

Forgive me if anyone has said as much, but something that directly stands out to me about all of the comments heretofore mentioned is that they are treating a state of consciousness in a formalist way, as if the mind exists independent of the body. The brain's activities and the things the mind experiences are very much situated in the realm of bodily states. One state that is very common amongst people who follow ce…

I had pretty much the same symptoms as this guy with zero meditation, just caffeine overdose. When I stopped drinking coffee and tea all symptoms, including dread and feeling that something is very wrong, muscle twitching and other odd feelings went away. And I didn't even drink that much by coffee drinkers standards.

I found it strange him mentioning drinking coffee in the retreat, especially in the morning after experiencing strong dissociation. In general I would have thought they'd skip the coffee.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#255

Post by goodpoint »

littlethrowaway wrote: post #64
eurasiantiger wrote: post #46

> And I didn’t have a history of any major trauma prior to the retreat Yeah, right. > in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar … I broke a window with my fist, misplaced my shirt, and guzzled about 16 bottles of Miller High Life … > That … represented a constant battle I had waged over the prior decade with anger and other negative emotions. I drank too much. I occasionally smashed printers that jammed.…

Heh, a very similar thing happened to me actually, and while I agree about the fist-fight comment, I honestly didn't have any childhood trauma. Came from a loving, pretty privileged family, but I still went off the rails with a 10 day silent retreat! It's extremely easy to dismiss people like this, but, have a care, there are real people on the other end of your dismissive comments.

The author claims not to have "history of any major trauma prior to the retreat" while also describing a decade of anger and negative emotion culminating in a serious fistfight.

unacknowledged childhood trauma is a real thing, it's not uncommon and does not constitute "dismissive comments" in any way.

Ironically, you are being very dismissive of eurasiantiger.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#256

Post by BiteCode_dev »

It's not unheard of. After spending a year in a meditation center I have been in contact with several people that burned out. My teachers forced me to take more time off to avoid this.

Meditation is wonderful, but it's powerful. Something powerful can be misused to hurt yourself, otherwise it wouldn't have much of an effect. A saw that can't cut your fingers will not be very practical.

Having a proper environnement helps a lot to limit this, and the right people with you, but it's not bulletproof.

I feel my practice is too taxing sometimes and slow down. One should not create an idea of what the path looks like and force a way into it until some kind of landmark is reached. Espacially with our lifestyles, going steadily, but gently, is important.

I have several friends, including myself, that reverted to using intoxicants, material comfort or distractions for a while because we couldn't handle more. Then after some time, went back to a more strict practice. Or didn't and accepted to stay at that level.

It's hard, pace yourself. Other practitionners should not judge you, we all have struggles.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#257

Post by wizzwizz4 »

sjayasinghe wrote: post #242

I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. Many modern-day practitioners, both in the east and the west, are under the impression that simply by mechanically practicing mindfulness meditation they will eventually reach a state of enlightenment. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding that the Buddha himself addressed…

> as this contradicts the purely empiricist approach of mechanically practicing mindfulness with the expectation that this leads to enlightenment.

This isn't really an empiricist approach. Empiricists look at what works, and (from what you're saying) this doesn't. I'm not sure what to call it, but that's the wrong word.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#258

Post by scoopdewoop »

salemh wrote: post #231
icybox wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alan Watts used to say "When you've received the message, hang up the phone."

A former student of Alan Watts, then a Taoist monk, found Orthodox Christianity after his searching, and has become a revered Priestmonk across the Orthodox world - he offers his own journey and offers the Eastern Orthodox Christian perspective of seeking God and His revelation. https://orthochristian.com/81732.html https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/father_... >The impersonal concept of deity was a…

This just sent me down such a hole reading about Fr Seraphim Rose, thanks.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#259

Post by bencollier49 »

Leparamour wrote: post #156
bencollier49 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Dark Night" is typically attributed to St. John of the Cross, although I'd be willing to believe that the term has been used in other traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul Ah, note the last paragraph in this article: 'In modern mindfulness practice, many authors have named a similar phenomenon in meditation as the dark night of the soul after the poem. It is often described as a length…

>irresponsible meditation practices I can't imagine what an irresponsible meditation practice would look like. Any pointers?

It's worth ruminating on the fact that all medicines are also poisons. This is why homeopathy is so safe.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#260

Post by gerbilly »

The guy who invented this, the historical Buddha, recommended many more techniques than just vipassana.

I think what happened in the west, is that—aside from zen centres/monasteries which draw upon a wider, established set of traditions and practices¹—we have focused too much on a single technique.

Especially in clinical settings. I imagine that to get your therapy to be approved in clinical settings, and to get funding, you have to publish papers and your paper can't be a survey of hundreds of differing 'treatment' approaches.

You would get more traction by isolating a potent subset, preferably a single one, and then using it and publishing your results.

None of what I said above is to imply cynical motives to the researchers doing this, it's just the usual reductionist worldview applied to a tradition spanning thousands of years, and what happens when "early results are promising."

tl;dr: Buddhism is more than just Vipassana. There are multiple techniques that complement, counteract each other. The Buddhist 'system' included different approaches for different personality types. More is not always better.

[1] Not that 'tradition' is sufficient to insulate these organisations from problems either.

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