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Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

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251–260 of 277 posts

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#251
post #4

Reading articles like this makes me appreciate living in the EU. It's not always great, but clearly it could be worse. Article 1 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights states "Human dignity is inviolable. It must be respected and protected." I feel like that would be broken were we to allow this behaviour towards workers.

To each to their own. I'm glad I don't live in the EU as I know I would get too stressed out by the restrictions placed upon individuals living there.

If you are a business owner, you may have a point, otherwise, there may be more restrictions, but most of them are so that you can actually enjoy your individual freedoms.

In the US you may be free in theory but if your job requires you to work 14 hours a day and you can't afford to quit, then, in practice, you are a slave. In many parts of Europe, you have laws that simply don't allow people to work 14 hours a day, and the remaining hours are under a minimum wage. So yes, it is a restriction on the individual, but in the end, employees have more freedom.

It is far from perfect, but in general most of the EU is less stressed than the US. But as you said, to each their own, to a minority of people, the US is the best. Many software devs are part of that minority.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#252
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which are those? I'm not really noticing here.

Not going to lie but the 90 day UK notice period when you quit is a massive hassle. Yeah I get that it’s tit for tat - your company can’t fire you tomorrow. But man, compared to the US where I can give notice, take my left over vacation and start at a new company all in 2 weeks, it does a lot for worker mobility.

> does a lot for worker mobility

[Surprise or downwards] mobility is what people want to avoid in permanent employment.

Such contracts are meant to give people the peace of mind that they focus on life and work and not think constantly about searching for the next job.

If you want mobility and higher pay, contracting is very popular in the UK.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#253
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to go beyond a competition based society. No matter how good the people running these companies are or want to be, competition will force their hand to create things like this. If it's not them, it'll be someone else. I'm sure we could find a way to encourage innovation without this competitive system.

Do you have any examples of societies that have successfully abolishing competition (and continued being somewhat functional)? It seems impossible to me but I would love to be surprised.

Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_people

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#254
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have historically complained a lot about firings not being based on an objective formula. Now the complaint is an objective formula is being used. > WW2 prisoner camps For starters, those camps would shoot anyone who tried to leave. Not the same thing at all.

Rather, the complaint is that the supposedly "objective" formula is completely obscured to both the victim and the executioner. A judge isn't called "objective" for deciding the outcome of a trial as a black-box call. If it were, we'd have replaced the justice system with the Vegas system long ago. A judge is called "objective" because they clearly articulate the inputs, scope, weightings and broader implications the…

>>A judge is called "objective" because they clearly articulate the inputs, scope, weightings and broader implications they considered to arrive at their outputs.

Even a judge has limits on comprehensiveness and objectivity. No human judge has perfect knowledge of every law in the United States. When making law, judges choose to uphold stare decisis in most cases but overturn decisions in others because of a certain gravitation towards certain interpretations that largely remain unarticulated. The latter is not done out of some "special" knowledge unobtainable by AI, but by the very subjectivity an AI is meant to rule out in its own considerations.

In contrast, an AI judge could provide an exact numerical weighting and ranking to the sources it cited or present the conditions under which there would be contradictions between one law and another if one were to rule in a certain way. AI doesn't have to be a black box. If done right, it can be most transparent and revealing legal tool to have ever been created.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#255
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the complaint is an objective formula is being used. As programmers we really should know better than blindly trusting software.

I'm pretty sure not all HN readers are programmers...

I'm quite sure that Walter Bright is though ;)

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#256
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell ! I moved from France to Ireland and there was no question asked at any point, I just booked a ferry and rented a flat, no paperwork at all and I could live there as long as I wanted to. I'm not so much saying you're wrong as afraid you're right, do you have sources ?

> I'm not so much saying you're wrong as afraid you're right, do you have sources ? Yes, in addition to alibarber reporting their experiences in Finland, the same is true for EU citizens in Denmark: https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-GB/You-want-to-apply/Residence-... Where you see that you can stay in Denmark provided you're a worker at a Danish company, a student, a self-employed person, have sufficient funds or are from…

> So in general the EU freedom of movement is "freedom of movement of workers", not just anyone.

Exactly. For Americans (and other) readers there are four freedoms in the single EU market: free movement of goods, capital, services, and workers, known collectively as the "four freedoms".

People and workers may/are often used interchangeably but in laws it is about worker's freedom to move between borders, not people.

I think it's an interesting difference with the united states which is older than the EU but younger than Europe. It also highlights that in law, in modern Europe, capital goods, services and workers have rights to cross borders while the US American citizens are free to cross state borders.

Strangely those laws are all about workers and the market but nevertheless and contrary to the US most EU countries still have a much better social security net (for people) than "neoliberalcapitalisticmoneyhungryonly" US which has freedom at its core.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#People

> Since its foundation, the Treaties sought to enable people to pursue their life goals in any country through free movement.[122] Reflecting the economic nature of the project, the European Community originally focused upon free movement of workers: as a "factor of production".[123] However, from the 1970s, this focus shifted towards developing a more "social" Europe.[124] Free movement was increasingly based on "citizenship", so that people had rights to empower them to become economically and socially active, rather than economic activity being a precondition for rights. This means the basic "worker" rights in TFEU article 45 function as a specific expression of the general rights of citizens in TFEU articles 18 to 21. According to the Court of Justice, a "worker" is anybody who is economically active, which includes everyone in an employment relationship, "under the direction of another person" for "remuneration".[125] A job, however, need not be paid in money for someone to be protected as a worker. For example, in Steymann v Staatssecretaris van Justitie, a German man claimed the right to residence in the Netherlands, while he volunteered plumbing and household duties in the Bhagwan community, which provided for everyone's material needs irrespective of their contributions.[126] The Court of Justice held that Mr Steymann was entitled to stay, so long as there was at least an "indirect quid pro quo" for the work he did. Having "worker" status means protection against all forms of discrimination by governments, and employers, in access to employment, tax, and social security rights. By contrast a citizen, who is "any person having the nationality of a Member State" (TFEU article 20(1)), has rights to seek work, vote in local and European elections, but more restricted rights to claim social security.[127] In practice, free movement has become politically contentious as nationalist political parties appear to have utilised concerns about immigrants taking jobs and benefits.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#257
post #73

Dystopia is an imagined state, whereas Amazon's doing is quite real and tangible.

Your point? I think everyone reading the article understands quite well what is meant by "dystopian legacy".

Yes, it's a clickbait title.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#258

Reading this, I'm so glad that in all of the EU it is illegal to fire someone purely based on a software decision. There's a minimum level of humanity that we should extend to everyone. Letting a known faulty AI decide if someone will have money for food tomorrow is way across the line. I'm not surprised that treating humans like cattle on their way to slaughter is hugely profitable. But I'm not sure we want to opera…

>Letting a known faulty AI decide if someone will have money for food tomorrow is way across the line. So is the implication here that humans are less faulty, or that there's something intrinsically wrong about an AI making this decision rather than a human? If the former, then this is an issue that the technology will probably eventually solve. If the latter, well... that doesn't seem very justifiable, to say the le…

> If Amazon has leaned too far in the direction of automation without oversight, then we'll see other firms fail to adopt these same practices.

By "leaned too far" I feel like you mean they relied on it in a way that made them less profitable than if they had not, in which case I agree. But I think most of us are worried that they leaned too far in a way that ruins peoples lives unfairly, we are more worried about that than Amazons bottom line. As a consumer I'm totally fine with paying 10% more for my coffee machine or whatever if ending such practices prevents even a single person from having their life upended.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#259

Reading this, I'm so glad that in all of the EU it is illegal to fire someone purely based on a software decision. There's a minimum level of humanity that we should extend to everyone. Letting a known faulty AI decide if someone will have money for food tomorrow is way across the line. I'm not surprised that treating humans like cattle on their way to slaughter is hugely profitable. But I'm not sure we want to opera…

People have historically complained a lot about firings not being based on an objective formula. Now the complaint is an objective formula is being used. > WW2 prisoner camps For starters, those camps would shoot anyone who tried to leave. Not the same thing at all.

My main issue with it is that we don't have complete data to feed into the formula to make a good decision. Some aspects of your job can't be quantified and entered into an algorithm.

It's the same as when project managers track how many commits per week each employee makes and use that as a metric for how much work they're doing - an exceptionally dumb example but it literally happens at a lot of companies. And for an algorithm such as this, I doubt they have much better/more useful data to feed it.

Humans have their own set of issues as well though, as you've mentioned. I feel that the problem stems from the way companies are organized with a single entity having full control over resources and decision making, as opposed to responsibility, resources, and power being divided among the people doing the work, in a self-organized and likely democratic way.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#260
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that decades of anti-union propaganda is still in effect when individuals are convinced that working together with other individuals and pooling their resources to improve their working conditions is a bad thing. Of course when companies do it - through trade associations or lobbying - it's seen as natural and necessary for their survival.

I find that most propaganda comes from unions as they increasingly seek a political relationship with workers rather than the economic relationship that workers want. On any union site - there are terms like "solidarity" with images of fists raised rather than actual data about improvement of wages or working conditions. This is why unions get trounced in votes by real workers, things like Prop 22 pass with easy marg…

> I find that most propaganda comes from unions as they increasingly seek a political relationship with workers rather than the economic relationship that workers want.

This is probably the purest, and most direct example of the insane propaganda trying to separate economics and politics as if they weren’t inherently and inseparably tied together.

“Oh, I’m so sorry that we can’t spend money on health care, or pay a living wage, or provide elder care, unfortunately, due to ECONOMICS.

Ah, you need some corporate pork, and a bailout..? Of course! Let’s shower private enterprise with tax payer money, it’s the best course of action due to ECONOMICS”

None of this shit is apolitical, and the suggestion that it is, is deeply political, no matter how much people try to define themselves out of reality.

The fact that you have already have been convinced that unions are the big problem, while corporations are stealing tax payer-money (while utilizing “tax avoidance” to not even contribute in the US), says it all doesn’t it?

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